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The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan lays bare the naive optimism and ignorance behind belief in alien UFOs. Aliens would be the greatest discovery in man's h

The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan lays bare the naive optimism and ignorance behind belief in alien UFOs. Aliens would be the greatest discovery in man's history. There would simply be no way to suppress it. If they can indeed be captured on cameras and sensors, the sheer number of cameras and sensors in the world for the last few decades would guarantee several high definition videos and measurements with no other rational explanation. The greatest minds in science would be clambering over each other to study them. Sagan also goes to great lengths to explain that there would be very little chance of aliens appearing or behaving the way they purportedly do. For example, they would certainly not fly almost exclusively over North America. The aliens are also not likely to change with the times, as is suggested by the fact that UFO conspiracy theories often follow patterns that change every few years or so. Alien sightings used to be green men in flying saucers, then they left crop circles, now they are little pill-shaped objects. In short, we lack any evidence at all, many who claim to see them later recant or admit to being charlatans, and the descriptions of aliens are rather unimaginative when compared to the actual possibilities of how alien life may look or behave.

Cpoll 3y ago
> high definition videos and measurements with no other rational explanation. I think that ship has sailed. Everything is forgeable, and provenance is difficult to establish at scale. Not that this in any way detracts from your point.
stevenhuang 3y ago
[flagged]
- DougEiffel 3y ago
  I desperately hope you're right. I would love for their to be aliens (who aren't immediately trying to wipe us out). I suspect that you're wrong though. And when I dig through your comment history, I see a bright, well-spoken individual in the grips of conspiracy and mysticism. The UAP/UFO phenomenon is always "for real this time!" Even now, the people testifying to Congress are not providing evidence or even giving firsthand accounts - they are playing a game of "someone said" and giving second or even third-hand accounts of aliens. Those who make the assertions must provide high-quality evidence. Please show me high-quality photo/video, or several world-renowned scientists who will attest to the definite existence of alien visitors. Conspiracies of this magnitude cannot be kept secret for long. Finally, your comment on a previous post about reverse engineering leading to the invention of circuits and transistors tells a lot about your bias. These inventions and the slow, iterative processes behind their creation are some of the most well-documented events in history. We have engineers, corporate documentation, peer-reviewed studies, blueprints, and the physical objects themselves. All of these things show precisely how we went from crude prototypes to complex feats of engineering - one small step at a time. There never was a sudden and unexpected explosion of technology which was completely alien to what had come before it.
  - stevenhuang 3y ago
    I expect nothing more from the uninformed than flagrant dismissal of the topic on grounds of conspiracy and mysticism. Unfortunately, to those that follow this topic, it is slowly becoming evident that this is indeed perhaps the largest conspiracy approaching confirmation by the day. The implications are vast. Yes, phenomenology we can only describe as mystical is among the implications. Or that we're seeing such mastery of sciences and technology it may as well be magic. I'm referring to abduction cases and witnesses' claims of events of high strangeness, of things like telepathy. Yes, abductions, telepathy, and weirder. Many may be hoaxes, many may not be. The point is, now that the prior for UAPs existing is likely, it necessitates a reanalysis of all historical witness testimony with this in mind. > the people testifying to Congress are not providing evidence or even giving firsthand accounts Wrong. https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re... > Several current members of the recovery program spoke to the Inspector General’s office and corroborated the information Grusch had provided for the classified complaint. > must provide high-quality evidence https://www.narcap.org/blog/narcaptr20 https://www.narcap.org/blog/narcaptr20 Many such accounts. But in general, the ubiquity of cameras argument is weak; the phenomenon is intelligent, this is self evident. It may well be it decides to present itself or allows itself to be captured, not us. See Valle's control system hypothesis. And according to the claims, the phenomenon is able to disable electronics, and even render people immobile and unconscious, or in some cases, manipulate time. It's not believable, I know. I'll cut it short by saying I'm open to the possibility of these claims being true, because I've analyzed just about any and all witness testimony of close encounters that I've found, and many very ordinary people independently recount extremely similar events. When one person recounts something unique and outrageous, pay it no heed. When many credible people independently recount the same things, it's a pattern. The independently part is important--hoaxers may simply rift on or remix the current memes to appear genuine. But I've accounted for this carefully in my analysis. > Conspiracies of this magnitude cannot be kept secret for long. We are witnessing its unraveling as we speak. And it hasn't been kept secret well at all, ufology got it right ever since Roswell. It's the manufactured ridicule and stigma of years of disinformation on this topic that has obfuscated the truth. > reverse engineering leading to the invention of circuits and transistors tells a lot about your bias Careful here. I did caveat the book has been dramatized by the publisher, and I actually do not agree with the import of Corso's claims wrt RE, precisely because I'm aware of no obvious discontinuities in the related fields, semiconductors or otherwise. He may very well have sent these artifacts for RE, but with little effect; our scientists and engineers may have figured things out anyways. If you genuinely want to understand, visit https://reddit.com/r/ufos https://reddit.com/r/ufos and read the top posts. The forum consists of people who believe everything, to people who debunk everything. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
postalrat 3y ago
But they don't fly exclusively over North America. Where did your get that idea? Pill shaped UFOs have been talked about for a long time. Where did you get the idea they haven't? There are high resolution videos and photos but they are mislabeled because people are rather unimaginative and changing is hard.

Cpoll 3y ago

> high definition videos and measurements with no other rational explanation. I think that ship has sailed. Everything is forgeable, and provenance is difficult to establish at scale. Not that this in any way detracts from your point.

stevenhuang 3y ago

[flagged]

DougEiffel 3y ago
I desperately hope you're right. I would love for their to be aliens (who aren't immediately trying to wipe us out). I suspect that you're wrong though. And when I dig through your comment history, I see a bright, well-spoken individual in the grips of conspiracy and mysticism. The UAP/UFO phenomenon is always "for real this time!" Even now, the people testifying to Congress are not providing evidence or even giving firsthand accounts - they are playing a game of "someone said" and giving second or even third-hand accounts of aliens. Those who make the assertions must provide high-quality evidence. Please show me high-quality photo/video, or several world-renowned scientists who will attest to the definite existence of alien visitors. Conspiracies of this magnitude cannot be kept secret for long. Finally, your comment on a previous post about reverse engineering leading to the invention of circuits and transistors tells a lot about your bias. These inventions and the slow, iterative processes behind their creation are some of the most well-documented events in history. We have engineers, corporate documentation, peer-reviewed studies, blueprints, and the physical objects themselves. All of these things show precisely how we went from crude prototypes to complex feats of engineering - one small step at a time. There never was a sudden and unexpected explosion of technology which was completely alien to what had come before it.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  I expect nothing more from the uninformed than flagrant dismissal of the topic on grounds of conspiracy and mysticism. Unfortunately, to those that follow this topic, it is slowly becoming evident that this is indeed perhaps the largest conspiracy approaching confirmation by the day. The implications are vast. Yes, phenomenology we can only describe as mystical is among the implications. Or that we're seeing such mastery of sciences and technology it may as well be magic. I'm referring to abduction cases and witnesses' claims of events of high strangeness, of things like telepathy. Yes, abductions, telepathy, and weirder. Many may be hoaxes, many may not be. The point is, now that the prior for UAPs existing is likely, it necessitates a reanalysis of all historical witness testimony with this in mind. > the people testifying to Congress are not providing evidence or even giving firsthand accounts Wrong. https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re... > Several current members of the recovery program spoke to the Inspector General’s office and corroborated the information Grusch had provided for the classified complaint. > must provide high-quality evidence https://www.narcap.org/blog/narcaptr20 https://www.narcap.org/blog/narcaptr20 Many such accounts. But in general, the ubiquity of cameras argument is weak; the phenomenon is intelligent, this is self evident. It may well be it decides to present itself or allows itself to be captured, not us. See Valle's control system hypothesis. And according to the claims, the phenomenon is able to disable electronics, and even render people immobile and unconscious, or in some cases, manipulate time. It's not believable, I know. I'll cut it short by saying I'm open to the possibility of these claims being true, because I've analyzed just about any and all witness testimony of close encounters that I've found, and many very ordinary people independently recount extremely similar events. When one person recounts something unique and outrageous, pay it no heed. When many credible people independently recount the same things, it's a pattern. The independently part is important--hoaxers may simply rift on or remix the current memes to appear genuine. But I've accounted for this carefully in my analysis. > Conspiracies of this magnitude cannot be kept secret for long. We are witnessing its unraveling as we speak. And it hasn't been kept secret well at all, ufology got it right ever since Roswell. It's the manufactured ridicule and stigma of years of disinformation on this topic that has obfuscated the truth. > reverse engineering leading to the invention of circuits and transistors tells a lot about your bias Careful here. I did caveat the book has been dramatized by the publisher, and I actually do not agree with the import of Corso's claims wrt RE, precisely because I'm aware of no obvious discontinuities in the related fields, semiconductors or otherwise. He may very well have sent these artifacts for RE, but with little effect; our scientists and engineers may have figured things out anyways. If you genuinely want to understand, visit https://reddit.com/r/ufos https://reddit.com/r/ufos and read the top posts. The forum consists of people who believe everything, to people who debunk everything. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

postalrat 3y ago

But they don't fly exclusively over North America. Where did your get that idea? Pill shaped UFOs have been talked about for a long time. Where did you get the idea they haven't? There are high resolution videos and photos but they are mislabeled because people are rather unimaginative and changing is hard.