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Apple’s market position had nothing to do with it, just their ability to restrict Facebook’s app. Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through

Apple’s market position had nothing to do with it, just their ability to restrict Facebook’s app. Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through similar technical means? Whose to say that we couldn’t do it better?

rad_gruchalski 3y ago
> Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through similar technical means? Whose to say that we couldn’t do it better? Exactly. Why? Because no other manufacturer who ships millions of devices an stays in control of their ecosystem was interested in this move. Millions of difficult to track iPhone users are still valuable to Facebook because they need MAUs. So Facebook had no choice but bend.
tonyarkles 3y ago
> Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through similar technical means? Whose to say that we couldn’t do it better? Who is "we" in this sentence? Apple doesn't have a ton of secret sauce that allows them to screw advertisers over and protect privacy. What they do have is money. Google sells advertisements. Advertisers are their customers and they give their customers what they want. Apple sells hardware that happens to come with pretty decent software. The reason we don't have a truly open platform that solves this problem through similar technical means is... money. It costs a crap ton of money to design a great phone. It costs a crap ton more money to build the software for it. And there's really only two players in the game right now.
- malwrar 3y ago
  > What they do have is money. …and the exclusive ability to determine what software runs on your phone and how it functions. Facebook can’t collect your data if they are prevented from collecting your data, but no one but Apple can do that because no one but Apple can technically restrict Facebook. > Who is "we" in this sentence? The broader technical community. Facebook’s app isn’t magical, it uses your phone’s OS features to stalk you and can be prevented from doing so through technical restrictions. Is this not precisely what Apple did? Facebook’s abuse exists at the mercy of its users under an open ecosystem. > It costs a crap ton of money to design a great phone. That’s why iPhones cost so much. I don’t see why they can’t just sell phones and let people decide on software if they want.
  - tonyarkles 3y ago
    > no one but Apple can technically restrict Facebook. There's nothing stopping Google from restricting Facebook other than... pissing off their advertisers. > I don’t see why they can’t just sell phones and let people decide on software if they want. I suspect a big part of it is that the intersection of (people who want to run their own OS) and (people who are willing to spend a lot of money on a device) is probably pretty small and would have a pretty high cost to support. Additionally, the secure boot chain end-to-end is part of the selling point here. On the Android side, I definitely know non-technical users that have jumped through a ton of hoops to enable developer mode so that they can install hacked APKs, only to discover later that those were actually full of malware. They followed random guides they found on a search engine to get themselves into that spot. With an iOS device, as is right now, it's pretty much impossible to get yourself into that situation.
    - Jtsummers 3y ago
      Google restricting Facebook tracking and ads would be a good setup for a lawsuit that Google would likely lose. Unlike Apple (who does still have an ad business), Google and Facebook are direct competitors in that space. For Google to block their competitor on their OS would turn into a major boon for Facebook.
      - tonyarkles 3y ago
        So I guess that's a good argument that... if you don't want a phone with unrestricted ads and tracking, you shouldn't buy one from a company whose primary business model is selling ads and analytics. The original post I replied to in this thread was arguing that Apple restricting Facebook had nothing to do with Apple's market position. You nailed it, thank you. Google's market position maybe does make it impossible for them to do what Apple did. And I guess to the other comments about an open pro-privacy platform, this is exactly the answer to what would need to be done. "We" would need a company that: - values privacy - values being an open platform - has the technical capability to build fantastic hardware and software - has figured out a profitable business model that doesn't involve selling out on either of those values and can support that technical capability

rad_gruchalski 3y ago

> Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through similar technical means? Whose to say that we couldn’t do it better? Exactly. Why? Because no other manufacturer who ships millions of devices an stays in control of their ecosystem was interested in this move. Millions of difficult to track iPhone users are still valuable to Facebook because they need MAUs. So Facebook had no choice but bend.

tonyarkles 3y ago

> Why couldn’t we do the same thing on an open platform through similar technical means? Whose to say that we couldn’t do it better? Who is "we" in this sentence? Apple doesn't have a ton of secret sauce that allows them to screw advertisers over and protect privacy. What they do have is money. Google sells advertisements. Advertisers are their customers and they give their customers what they want. Apple sells hardware that happens to come with pretty decent software. The reason we don't have a truly open platform that solves this problem through similar technical means is... money. It costs a crap ton of money to design a great phone. It costs a crap ton more money to build the software for it. And there's really only two players in the game right now.

malwrar 3y ago
> What they do have is money. …and the exclusive ability to determine what software runs on your phone and how it functions. Facebook can’t collect your data if they are prevented from collecting your data, but no one but Apple can do that because no one but Apple can technically restrict Facebook. > Who is "we" in this sentence? The broader technical community. Facebook’s app isn’t magical, it uses your phone’s OS features to stalk you and can be prevented from doing so through technical restrictions. Is this not precisely what Apple did? Facebook’s abuse exists at the mercy of its users under an open ecosystem. > It costs a crap ton of money to design a great phone. That’s why iPhones cost so much. I don’t see why they can’t just sell phones and let people decide on software if they want.
- tonyarkles 3y ago
  > no one but Apple can technically restrict Facebook. There's nothing stopping Google from restricting Facebook other than... pissing off their advertisers. > I don’t see why they can’t just sell phones and let people decide on software if they want. I suspect a big part of it is that the intersection of (people who want to run their own OS) and (people who are willing to spend a lot of money on a device) is probably pretty small and would have a pretty high cost to support. Additionally, the secure boot chain end-to-end is part of the selling point here. On the Android side, I definitely know non-technical users that have jumped through a ton of hoops to enable developer mode so that they can install hacked APKs, only to discover later that those were actually full of malware. They followed random guides they found on a search engine to get themselves into that spot. With an iOS device, as is right now, it's pretty much impossible to get yourself into that situation.
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
    Google restricting Facebook tracking and ads would be a good setup for a lawsuit that Google would likely lose. Unlike Apple (who does still have an ad business), Google and Facebook are direct competitors in that space. For Google to block their competitor on their OS would turn into a major boon for Facebook.
    - tonyarkles 3y ago
      So I guess that's a good argument that... if you don't want a phone with unrestricted ads and tracking, you shouldn't buy one from a company whose primary business model is selling ads and analytics. The original post I replied to in this thread was arguing that Apple restricting Facebook had nothing to do with Apple's market position. You nailed it, thank you. Google's market position maybe does make it impossible for them to do what Apple did. And I guess to the other comments about an open pro-privacy platform, this is exactly the answer to what would need to be done. "We" would need a company that: - values privacy - values being an open platform - has the technical capability to build fantastic hardware and software - has figured out a profitable business model that doesn't involve selling out on either of those values and can support that technical capability