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Yes, distribution is the key. Suppose that my company has powerful video editing software that we sell (which is distribution). Consider that it has unique fu

Yes, distribution is the key. Suppose that my company has powerful video editing software that we sell (which is distribution). Consider that it has unique functionality and has taken a decade to develop by a team of developers, all of whom have salaries, insurance, retirement, etc. that need to be paid, otherwise the software would not exist. Proprietary code and profit are more than appropriate in this situation, as I believe that workers should reap the reward of their labor and investment. Now, suppose that a new feature is wanted. There is a project that provides that functionality, but it is licensed GPL. Can I use it? Absolutely not! Because, if I do, then I am obligated to release all of my source code in addition, because it integrates with the GPL code. It is financial suicide for my business to do so (which, btw, is a political preference for many of the GPL proponents). What will I do instead? I will probably just have my developer write our own version, adding in the extra features that we need. Contrast that with the MIT-licensed code. We can use it without fear, and we will probably even submit enhancements back to the project, simply because it makes our lives easier in the future for maintenance. GPL poisons downstream, simple as that. You are correct that there is no obligation to submit a PR upstream, but there is a requirement for my source code to be made available under the same GPL license. GPL is "infectious" (or "viral", take your pick of words). The funny thing is, I believe in freedom with software, but my interpretation of "free" is vastly different than the GPL interpretation of "free". And, as I said, I put my money where my mouth is... almost everything I write (except for my job) is MIT licensed code.

michaelmrose 3y ago
It's really weird that you describe requiring reciprocation as poisoning downstream. Proprietary software also doesn't allow you to just incorporate their code in your proprietary software and distribute it. Nobody described plain jane closed source software as "infectious" even though by any reasonable definition it is vastly more so. Open source software will let you remediate the situation by removing it or open sourcing it without penalty while closed source software if incorporated without following the license will see the owners lawyers crunching your bones to suck out the marrow. If GPL is a cold then proprietary software is ebola. In the overwhelming number of cases the party is selling something other than their software and you are equally free to negotiate a different license with the developer if you have different needs.
- coreyp_1 3y ago
  I'm not aware of any closed source software that supplies you with source code. (Although, in contract negotiations, it is common for source code to be held in escrow for large $$$ contracts, but that is for a different perpose entirely). Also, suppose that you were to write something that interacted with the binaries of a closed-source system. That would not automatically remove the proprietary nature of your own software, so it is not infectious at all. You may not be able to distribute the proprietary software, but you could sell it as an add-on product without surrendering your IP. That's not ebola. That's a full quarantine and separation that respects the IP of individual owners. GPL is particularly troublesome when it is a dependency of a dependency of a dependency of a dependency. You may not even know that you are using GPL code because the dependency that you are intending to use is not GPL. Again, the words "viral" and "infectious" are used because of this behavior... And this behavior was purposefully designed into the license as part of the political beliefs of the founders. I'm not saying that GPL is useless, but rather that it is significant and potent enough that it is a single factor that will eliminate a project from consideration. Period. No if's, and's, or but's. So much so that I personally avoid GPL as much as possible in my own projects, and I distribute my projects as MIT.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    > Also, suppose that you were to write something that interacted with the binaries of a closed-source system. That would not automatically remove the proprietary nature of your own software, so it is not infectious at all. You may not be able to distribute the proprietary software, but you could sell it as an add-on product without surrendering your IP. That's not ebola. That's a full quarantine and separation that respects the IP of individual owners. Unlawfully including GPL code in your proprietary product doesn't magically make your code GPL. It can't. In fact it has the EXACT SAME EFFECT as including proprietary code it means you are committing copyright infringement by distributing the combined work. The ability to get out of jail free by complying with the GPL and releasing the combined work under the GPL or just replacing the code you never had the right to distribute without further drama or penalty are extra privileges that you will never receive if you decide to distribute proprietary software. You are confusing additional benefits for penalties and pitfalls. Once again you don't have to release your code as GPL you can simply rewrite the portion that you didn't have a right to distribute. > GPL is particularly troublesome when it is a dependency of a dependency of a dependency of a dependency. You may not even know that you are using GPL code because the dependency that you are intending to use is not GPL. Again, the words "viral" and "infectious" are used because of this behavior... If you are responsible for a product knowing where the code comes from falls under the basic responsibilities of the job. Declaring in public that you own someone Elise's property because you couldn't be bothered to look is like catching a public indecency charge because you couldn't remember to wear pants that day. You put on pants and the problem goes away. If you have followed any of the cases in which companies misused GPL code it looks metaphorically like someone following you around politely and repeatedly reminding you to cover your nudity whereas infringing on proprietary code looks more like a swat team showing and flinging flash bangs. If you are lucky if you don't end up getting shot.

michaelmrose 3y ago

It's really weird that you describe requiring reciprocation as poisoning downstream. Proprietary software also doesn't allow you to just incorporate their code in your proprietary software and distribute it. Nobody described plain jane closed source software as "infectious" even though by any reasonable definition it is vastly more so. Open source software will let you remediate the situation by removing it or open sourcing it without penalty while closed source software if incorporated without following the license will see the owners lawyers crunching your bones to suck out the marrow. If GPL is a cold then proprietary software is ebola. In the overwhelming number of cases the party is selling something other than their software and you are equally free to negotiate a different license with the developer if you have different needs.

coreyp_1 3y ago
I'm not aware of any closed source software that supplies you with source code. (Although, in contract negotiations, it is common for source code to be held in escrow for large $$$ contracts, but that is for a different perpose entirely). Also, suppose that you were to write something that interacted with the binaries of a closed-source system. That would not automatically remove the proprietary nature of your own software, so it is not infectious at all. You may not be able to distribute the proprietary software, but you could sell it as an add-on product without surrendering your IP. That's not ebola. That's a full quarantine and separation that respects the IP of individual owners. GPL is particularly troublesome when it is a dependency of a dependency of a dependency of a dependency. You may not even know that you are using GPL code because the dependency that you are intending to use is not GPL. Again, the words "viral" and "infectious" are used because of this behavior... And this behavior was purposefully designed into the license as part of the political beliefs of the founders. I'm not saying that GPL is useless, but rather that it is significant and potent enough that it is a single factor that will eliminate a project from consideration. Period. No if's, and's, or but's. So much so that I personally avoid GPL as much as possible in my own projects, and I distribute my projects as MIT.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  > Also, suppose that you were to write something that interacted with the binaries of a closed-source system. That would not automatically remove the proprietary nature of your own software, so it is not infectious at all. You may not be able to distribute the proprietary software, but you could sell it as an add-on product without surrendering your IP. That's not ebola. That's a full quarantine and separation that respects the IP of individual owners. Unlawfully including GPL code in your proprietary product doesn't magically make your code GPL. It can't. In fact it has the EXACT SAME EFFECT as including proprietary code it means you are committing copyright infringement by distributing the combined work. The ability to get out of jail free by complying with the GPL and releasing the combined work under the GPL or just replacing the code you never had the right to distribute without further drama or penalty are extra privileges that you will never receive if you decide to distribute proprietary software. You are confusing additional benefits for penalties and pitfalls. Once again you don't have to release your code as GPL you can simply rewrite the portion that you didn't have a right to distribute. > GPL is particularly troublesome when it is a dependency of a dependency of a dependency of a dependency. You may not even know that you are using GPL code because the dependency that you are intending to use is not GPL. Again, the words "viral" and "infectious" are used because of this behavior... If you are responsible for a product knowing where the code comes from falls under the basic responsibilities of the job. Declaring in public that you own someone Elise's property because you couldn't be bothered to look is like catching a public indecency charge because you couldn't remember to wear pants that day. You put on pants and the problem goes away. If you have followed any of the cases in which companies misused GPL code it looks metaphorically like someone following you around politely and repeatedly reminding you to cover your nudity whereas infringing on proprietary code looks more like a swat team showing and flinging flash bangs. If you are lucky if you don't end up getting shot.