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North Korea runs contrary to my intuition about dictators. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of regicide, but most dictatorships, even among the most horr

North Korea runs contrary to my intuition about dictators. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of regicide, but most dictatorships, even among the most horrific, represent some sort of misguided attempt at benevolance. Killing dissidents? Sure, they're getting in the way of your utopian plan. Failed economic plans that lead to famine? Well, the idea had some justification, better pivot to avoid further harm. Hell, even overtly fascist ideologies have some subset of the "common folk" that they attempt to promote. North Korea's leadership doesn't seem to have any interest at all in the wellbeing of the populace. I'd expect radical, top down changes to be common place until they found some solution that didn't have almost half of the country malnourished. Yet they just seem to double down, consistently.

awiejrliawjer 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jhbadger 3y ago
In Kim Il-Sung's (the first of the Kims) time there was some sort of attempt at improving the lines of the North Koreans (as ineffectual as it was), but certainly in the reigns of his son Kim Jong-Il and his grandson Kim Jong-Un, it does look like power for the sake of power. I suspect at this point there is a fear (not just from Kim Jong-Un but also the higher ranks of the military and administration) that any sort of reform will lead to them not only losing power but also their lives.
lordfrito 3y ago
> represent some sort of misguided attempt at benevolence This is the image dictatorships sell to their poor, uneducated, and ill-informed public. The reality is much worse. Rulers tend to make decisions that benefit those who they share power with (no man rules alone). Dictatorships thrive where there are abundant natural resources combined with an uneducated public. Democracies tend to thrive where a country's main resource is it's people. North Korea has neither. But those in power wish to remain so, and the cult of personality around "the ruler" and his benevolence helps maintain some form of control over those that are starving. Well that and a lot of guns. North Korea has a well deserved reputation for brutality and suffering. Checkout the video series Rules for Rulers. It's pretty eye opening, and helped me change the way I look at countries and geopolitics. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  I've seen the series, and I'm not talking about the politics of maintaining power. I'm talking about the leadership's motivation: Why do you become Supreme Leader instead of merely being one of those oligarchs? Life's a lot easier for those power brokers, people who rise to the very top of power have a reason, at least for themselves.
  - lordfrito 3y ago
    If you're still talking about North Korea, well the current Supreme Leader was born into it. I suppose he likes the lifestyle, and the ability to order people around and generally do what he pleases. It's better than being an underlying, or a starving person. Plus it's all he knows. He's demonstrated his willingness to execute people (including his half-brother) to maintain his grip on power. So this isn't a guy who is worried about ethics and morals. He understands the politics of power, and is clearly capable of doing what it takes to hold on to power. These are men not to be trifled with. It's probably kill or be killed at this point. He's smart enough to have recognized that early on, which is why he's still around and his brother isn't. Sometimes power and prestige, getting your way, winning and being right all the time are the ends in and of themselves. Having worked with many C-level people, I can say that their one common motivation seems to be "winning at any cost". If people are helped along the way, great. If people are hurt, well... tough decisions had to be made. It definitely takes charisma, and the ability to convince people that you have their best interests in mind. Steve Jobs' reality distortion field comes to mind. The essence of a politician is they always seem to agree with you and be on your side, but you never know what they're really thinking, and don't be surprised if they blindside you at some point. Evolutionary biologists suggest that there's a reason our species tolerates sociopaths (it's seemingly in our gene pool) -- they have the ability to get things done and build empires, skills that are needed to navigate/survive at the very top of large power structures.
CrackerNews 3y ago
There is still a benevolence angle when it comes to things like providing free healthcare, but even here food supply has been a problem.
pydry 3y ago
>North Korea's leadership doesn't seem to have any interest at all in the wellbeing of the populace. It's a manufactured impression. Western oligarchy controlled media doesnt like to talk about how they pay $0 for college and medical care. They focus exclusively on the prison camps, etc. North Koreans are fed an impression of America that centers around stuff like Guantanamo bay, Abu ghraib, medical bankruptcies and the unfair cost of college. I'm sure many are equally perplexed about why Americans haven't yet "risen up".
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Making that argument about, say, Cuba makes plenty of sense to me. Sure, there's a relatively oppressive regime, but they also have made a lot of moves that genuinely have the people's interest at heart, and most people's needs are being met. That claim doesn't work when almost half your populace is starving: literally the second most important human need is being failed.
  - pydry 3y ago
    >That claim doesn't work when almost half your populace is starving: literally They're not. This is another consistently manufactured impression - that the famine never ended. They were starving in the 90s but it wasn't like that was deliberate and it ended 25 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine There's a number of ways the media continues to manufacture this impression, including: * Interviews with people who fled North Korea a long time ago - closer to the famine. * Paying North Koreans they can gain access to for good stories - at which point they get some really juicy stories. A small number of these apart under the weight of their own contradictions - the rest, of course, can't ever be verified. * Looking at satellite photos and drawing dubious conclusions (like if there isn't food being imported from China this month that they don't have food). * Looking at trailing indicators of the famine like stunted height. * Comparing everything to South Korea - which has really good metrics even by first world standards - rather than, say, an average middle income or 3rd world country.
Beached 3y ago
look up the concept of North Korean juchae and you will understand the leadership

awiejrliawjer 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jhbadger 3y ago

In Kim Il-Sung's (the first of the Kims) time there was some sort of attempt at improving the lines of the North Koreans (as ineffectual as it was), but certainly in the reigns of his son Kim Jong-Il and his grandson Kim Jong-Un, it does look like power for the sake of power. I suspect at this point there is a fear (not just from Kim Jong-Un but also the higher ranks of the military and administration) that any sort of reform will lead to them not only losing power but also their lives.

lordfrito 3y ago

> represent some sort of misguided attempt at benevolence This is the image dictatorships sell to their poor, uneducated, and ill-informed public. The reality is much worse. Rulers tend to make decisions that benefit those who they share power with (no man rules alone). Dictatorships thrive where there are abundant natural resources combined with an uneducated public. Democracies tend to thrive where a country's main resource is it's people. North Korea has neither. But those in power wish to remain so, and the cult of personality around "the ruler" and his benevolence helps maintain some form of control over those that are starving. Well that and a lot of guns. North Korea has a well deserved reputation for brutality and suffering. Checkout the video series Rules for Rulers. It's pretty eye opening, and helped me change the way I look at countries and geopolitics. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
I've seen the series, and I'm not talking about the politics of maintaining power. I'm talking about the leadership's motivation: Why do you become Supreme Leader instead of merely being one of those oligarchs? Life's a lot easier for those power brokers, people who rise to the very top of power have a reason, at least for themselves.
- lordfrito 3y ago
  If you're still talking about North Korea, well the current Supreme Leader was born into it. I suppose he likes the lifestyle, and the ability to order people around and generally do what he pleases. It's better than being an underlying, or a starving person. Plus it's all he knows. He's demonstrated his willingness to execute people (including his half-brother) to maintain his grip on power. So this isn't a guy who is worried about ethics and morals. He understands the politics of power, and is clearly capable of doing what it takes to hold on to power. These are men not to be trifled with. It's probably kill or be killed at this point. He's smart enough to have recognized that early on, which is why he's still around and his brother isn't. Sometimes power and prestige, getting your way, winning and being right all the time are the ends in and of themselves. Having worked with many C-level people, I can say that their one common motivation seems to be "winning at any cost". If people are helped along the way, great. If people are hurt, well... tough decisions had to be made. It definitely takes charisma, and the ability to convince people that you have their best interests in mind. Steve Jobs' reality distortion field comes to mind. The essence of a politician is they always seem to agree with you and be on your side, but you never know what they're really thinking, and don't be surprised if they blindside you at some point. Evolutionary biologists suggest that there's a reason our species tolerates sociopaths (it's seemingly in our gene pool) -- they have the ability to get things done and build empires, skills that are needed to navigate/survive at the very top of large power structures.

CrackerNews 3y ago

There is still a benevolence angle when it comes to things like providing free healthcare, but even here food supply has been a problem.

pydry 3y ago

>North Korea's leadership doesn't seem to have any interest at all in the wellbeing of the populace. It's a manufactured impression. Western oligarchy controlled media doesnt like to talk about how they pay $0 for college and medical care. They focus exclusively on the prison camps, etc. North Koreans are fed an impression of America that centers around stuff like Guantanamo bay, Abu ghraib, medical bankruptcies and the unfair cost of college. I'm sure many are equally perplexed about why Americans haven't yet "risen up".

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
Making that argument about, say, Cuba makes plenty of sense to me. Sure, there's a relatively oppressive regime, but they also have made a lot of moves that genuinely have the people's interest at heart, and most people's needs are being met. That claim doesn't work when almost half your populace is starving: literally the second most important human need is being failed.
- pydry 3y ago
  >That claim doesn't work when almost half your populace is starving: literally They're not. This is another consistently manufactured impression - that the famine never ended. They were starving in the 90s but it wasn't like that was deliberate and it ended 25 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine There's a number of ways the media continues to manufacture this impression, including: * Interviews with people who fled North Korea a long time ago - closer to the famine. * Paying North Koreans they can gain access to for good stories - at which point they get some really juicy stories. A small number of these apart under the weight of their own contradictions - the rest, of course, can't ever be verified. * Looking at satellite photos and drawing dubious conclusions (like if there isn't food being imported from China this month that they don't have food). * Looking at trailing indicators of the famine like stunted height. * Comparing everything to South Korea - which has really good metrics even by first world standards - rather than, say, an average middle income or 3rd world country.

Beached 3y ago

look up the concept of North Korean juchae and you will understand the leadership