5 ms·

> benefit from the product and gain an incentive > An infintessimal fraction of users care about philosophy or architecture [...] Users came for their cat pics

by rakoo 3y ago

> benefit from the product and gain an incentive > An infintessimal fraction of users care about philosophy or architecture [...] Users came for their cat pics. Give them their cat pics. Pitch them on the back end afterwards. I'm afraid you don't understand the concept of the fediverse. The philosophy is the point. Making reddit2 is completely useless. This is not a product, it's a vision of how we manage communications as a society. It implies involvement, because in a democracy you are part of the decision process, and you act as a community. Your egocentric, utilitarian, self-obsessed mindset is the complete opposite. I can't be really surprised to see this on hn, but oh well.

fnovd 3y ago
If the philosophy is the point, it's a dead platform. Utopian ideals are fine, if that's your thing. Shaming people who don't share them is just rude. I don't see how you can compare the platform to the democratic process and not expect the same warts you see in democracies. A few people care a lot, some people care a bit, most people barely care at all. Grandstanding will never change that.
- rakoo 3y ago
  I've said it in a sibling post, but I don't believe our political systems are perfect models of democracy but are closer to benevolent dictatorships. It's comfortable, but that's not xhat the fediverse is about. There are plenty of centralized platforms with exactly the same problems as reddit, the fediverse is about building something else.
  - fnovd 3y ago
    If there are no successful, extant examples, then I don't think it's a good basis for anything. As I said, it's a Utopian ideal. That's fine, but it's not practical (and it's not trying to be). I think there are going to be incredibly valuable lessons-learned from these federated models, and interesting things will happen there. However, all of that will be capitalized by a nimble, forward-thinking, idealistic-yet-centralized model that gets rid of all the ideological cruft and polishes a real, useful, and engaging product.
    - rakoo 3y ago
      You need to define what "successful" means, because I feel we don't have the same definition. To me, being able to control the medium and communicate with the people I'm interested in is already a success. The fediverse is home to millions of people and is open for anyone to join. It's not a product, because "products" suck; it's a system that involves people and is under constant evolution. The "product" mentality is the cancer that led us to where we are. We must get rid of it. > I think there are going to be incredibly valuable lessons-learned from these federated models, and interesting things will happen there. I totally agree with that. The control an admin has over an instance is still problematic, and someone shared something about confederated protocols (https://nexus.blacksky.network/zine/00000001/confederal-protocols https://nexus.blacksky.network/zine/00000001/confederal-prot...) and that is an interesting way forward.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> philosophy is the point. Making reddit2 is completely useless. This is not a product, it's a vision of how we manage communications as a society. Nothing about cleaner onboarding requires anyone to compromise principles. And nothing about a guiding philosophy requires you constantly evangelize. Let the merits of the system speak for itself. > implies involvement, because in a democracy you are part of the decision process, and you act as a community Then the sign-up page is a poll test. Democratic ambition strives to make participation easy. That doesn't mean the act of participating is easy. Just that we identify needless barriers and ideological tests as undemocratic. As a result, democracies--time and again--outcompete their centralized peers. What I'm seeing is not competitive, and it is not democratic. It's closer to theological. I'm hopeful that someone will embrace these principles more productively so we have middle ground between Huffman-Musk and crypto/web3.
- rakoo 3y ago
  For a more precise background* I don't believe a representative democracy, where we must abandon all power to someone else who we hepe will do the right thing is a model we should be pursuing. Polls are not a good thing per se, they're only better than the worse methods. What happens here is that we have the occasion to take control of our community gatherings. How do you take control if you don't even know what you're talking about ? How can you discuss the form of society we're building if you don't want to discuss and be told how to think ? Now, I understand that what I'm asking for is out of the norms, because we're not used to decide collectively and run our own lives, the entirety of our education and our lives happens with someone else taking decisions for us. It's comfortable, we don't need to think too much, especially when we agree with the decisions. Here is the occasion to do it differently. Why not do it ? And if picking an instance is too hard, why not pick a random one ? We want to have the best thing for us individually, but we want to be told what it is. We want to not be subjects to the whims of the owner of a platform, but we don't want to understand where we're setting foot and prefer a generic instance that will be for everyone. Hust lite reddit, but different. That's not building, that's consuming, and if you're only there to consume, do you really want a democracy ? It sounds like a benevolent dictatorship is better. In short, I don't believe actual democracy can happen without understanding the situation.
FormerBandmate 3y ago
This is a horrible way to get the mass market. It seems like a perfect way to recreate the issues with desktop Linux
- Tainnor 3y ago
  Some people like desktop Linux and don't care whether it's for the masses or not.
- pauby 3y ago
  That's assuming the goal is to get to 'mass market'. Lemmy existed before the Reddit exodus. It will exist when they all go back.
  - FormerBandmate 3y ago
    In that case, why even bring up Lemmy as a Reddit alternative? It just serves to attract people who won’t be good users and waste their time
    - rakoo 3y ago
      Lemmy has the same functionality, and allows people to both control their own conditions and talk to anyone. That's the reason this whole ruckus is happening. Centralized alternatives don't have that. I don't know who said lemmy is an alternative to reddit, because just like mastodon/twitter, it's not. Or rather, not so simple.
- smolder 3y ago
  There is no mass market solution to both the problems Reddit solves and the ones Lemmy solves. Anything like Reddit which is optimized for easy access and broad engagement will draw a lot of non-contributing users, a lot of spammers, trolls, etc., is unwieldy to run, and will need to suck eventually when it comes time to monetize the network effects. Anything like Lemmy, which can be self-supported and necessarily allows people to run and manage their own fiefdoms in ways that are manageable for them, means there is an added layer of complexity which inhibits easy access and broad engagement. To the extent Lemmy can be made easier to navigate, sign up for, or create communities with, it should be. No one should have to recompile a Lemmy kernel or anything, not that it's anything like that. Neither should anyone expect or even want it to be Reddit, which just deferred figuring out how to sustain itself during a prolonged giveaway of utility before its inevitable enshitification.
kelnos 3y ago
If all you care about is the philosophy, then you're going to fail. Most people only care about the end product, the end experience. And unfortunately you still need those people (to some extent) since these sorts of things require some kind of critical mass to be successful.
- rakoo 3y ago
  Fail at what exactly ? What are your criterias for success ? If it's something like eternal growth ana scalability, I would consider that a failure. My criteria is if everyone has access to the people they care about, in conditions they control. Commercial success is not for me. > Most people only care about the end product, the end experience. Because that's what we keep telling them: don't think, let me take care of this, CEO knows better. That is how we arrive at this crooked situation where sharholders come first, business partners second, and users last.
  - joeythedolphin 3y ago
    Sadly most people are the herd and the herd wants to be force-fed. All the better, I prefer smaller more engaged communities anyway. Diamond in the rough, lucky are the few, etc.

by rakoo 3y ago

fnovd 3y ago

If the philosophy is the point, it's a dead platform. Utopian ideals are fine, if that's your thing. Shaming people who don't share them is just rude. I don't see how you can compare the platform to the democratic process and not expect the same warts you see in democracies. A few people care a lot, some people care a bit, most people barely care at all. Grandstanding will never change that.

rakoo 3y ago
I've said it in a sibling post, but I don't believe our political systems are perfect models of democracy but are closer to benevolent dictatorships. It's comfortable, but that's not xhat the fediverse is about. There are plenty of centralized platforms with exactly the same problems as reddit, the fediverse is about building something else.
- fnovd 3y ago
  If there are no successful, extant examples, then I don't think it's a good basis for anything. As I said, it's a Utopian ideal. That's fine, but it's not practical (and it's not trying to be). I think there are going to be incredibly valuable lessons-learned from these federated models, and interesting things will happen there. However, all of that will be capitalized by a nimble, forward-thinking, idealistic-yet-centralized model that gets rid of all the ideological cruft and polishes a real, useful, and engaging product.
  - rakoo 3y ago
    You need to define what "successful" means, because I feel we don't have the same definition. To me, being able to control the medium and communicate with the people I'm interested in is already a success. The fediverse is home to millions of people and is open for anyone to join. It's not a product, because "products" suck; it's a system that involves people and is under constant evolution. The "product" mentality is the cancer that led us to where we are. We must get rid of it. > I think there are going to be incredibly valuable lessons-learned from these federated models, and interesting things will happen there. I totally agree with that. The control an admin has over an instance is still problematic, and someone shared something about confederated protocols (https://nexus.blacksky.network/zine/00000001/confederal-protocols https://nexus.blacksky.network/zine/00000001/confederal-prot...) and that is an interesting way forward.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> philosophy is the point. Making reddit2 is completely useless. This is not a product, it's a vision of how we manage communications as a society. Nothing about cleaner onboarding requires anyone to compromise principles. And nothing about a guiding philosophy requires you constantly evangelize. Let the merits of the system speak for itself. > implies involvement, because in a democracy you are part of the decision process, and you act as a community Then the sign-up page is a poll test. Democratic ambition strives to make participation easy. That doesn't mean the act of participating is easy. Just that we identify needless barriers and ideological tests as undemocratic. As a result, democracies--time and again--outcompete their centralized peers. What I'm seeing is not competitive, and it is not democratic. It's closer to theological. I'm hopeful that someone will embrace these principles more productively so we have middle ground between Huffman-Musk and crypto/web3.

rakoo 3y ago
For a more precise background* I don't believe a representative democracy, where we must abandon all power to someone else who we hepe will do the right thing is a model we should be pursuing. Polls are not a good thing per se, they're only better than the worse methods. What happens here is that we have the occasion to take control of our community gatherings. How do you take control if you don't even know what you're talking about ? How can you discuss the form of society we're building if you don't want to discuss and be told how to think ? Now, I understand that what I'm asking for is out of the norms, because we're not used to decide collectively and run our own lives, the entirety of our education and our lives happens with someone else taking decisions for us. It's comfortable, we don't need to think too much, especially when we agree with the decisions. Here is the occasion to do it differently. Why not do it ? And if picking an instance is too hard, why not pick a random one ? We want to have the best thing for us individually, but we want to be told what it is. We want to not be subjects to the whims of the owner of a platform, but we don't want to understand where we're setting foot and prefer a generic instance that will be for everyone. Hust lite reddit, but different. That's not building, that's consuming, and if you're only there to consume, do you really want a democracy ? It sounds like a benevolent dictatorship is better. In short, I don't believe actual democracy can happen without understanding the situation.

FormerBandmate 3y ago

This is a horrible way to get the mass market. It seems like a perfect way to recreate the issues with desktop Linux

Tainnor 3y ago
Some people like desktop Linux and don't care whether it's for the masses or not.
pauby 3y ago
That's assuming the goal is to get to 'mass market'. Lemmy existed before the Reddit exodus. It will exist when they all go back.
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  In that case, why even bring up Lemmy as a Reddit alternative? It just serves to attract people who won’t be good users and waste their time
  - rakoo 3y ago
    Lemmy has the same functionality, and allows people to both control their own conditions and talk to anyone. That's the reason this whole ruckus is happening. Centralized alternatives don't have that. I don't know who said lemmy is an alternative to reddit, because just like mastodon/twitter, it's not. Or rather, not so simple.
smolder 3y ago
There is no mass market solution to both the problems Reddit solves and the ones Lemmy solves. Anything like Reddit which is optimized for easy access and broad engagement will draw a lot of non-contributing users, a lot of spammers, trolls, etc., is unwieldy to run, and will need to suck eventually when it comes time to monetize the network effects. Anything like Lemmy, which can be self-supported and necessarily allows people to run and manage their own fiefdoms in ways that are manageable for them, means there is an added layer of complexity which inhibits easy access and broad engagement. To the extent Lemmy can be made easier to navigate, sign up for, or create communities with, it should be. No one should have to recompile a Lemmy kernel or anything, not that it's anything like that. Neither should anyone expect or even want it to be Reddit, which just deferred figuring out how to sustain itself during a prolonged giveaway of utility before its inevitable enshitification.

kelnos 3y ago

If all you care about is the philosophy, then you're going to fail. Most people only care about the end product, the end experience. And unfortunately you still need those people (to some extent) since these sorts of things require some kind of critical mass to be successful.

rakoo 3y ago
Fail at what exactly ? What are your criterias for success ? If it's something like eternal growth ana scalability, I would consider that a failure. My criteria is if everyone has access to the people they care about, in conditions they control. Commercial success is not for me. > Most people only care about the end product, the end experience. Because that's what we keep telling them: don't think, let me take care of this, CEO knows better. That is how we arrive at this crooked situation where sharholders come first, business partners second, and users last.
- joeythedolphin 3y ago
  Sadly most people are the herd and the herd wants to be force-fed. All the better, I prefer smaller more engaged communities anyway. Diamond in the rough, lucky are the few, etc.