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IMHO, Reddit's charging such a high price for API access that it's as good as unattainable is more of a last straw then anything else. Reddit has been clear tha

IMHO, Reddit's charging such a high price for API access that it's as good as unattainable is more of a last straw then anything else. Reddit has been clear that they view the data as their sole property, when you think it through, why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? I don't know why it took this long for moderators to quit.

idiotsecant 3y ago
I don't think many moderators will actually quit as long as the users are there, especially since reddit gave back some moderator API call access. Moderating is already a terrible, thankless job. The people who do it enjoy moderating because (I assume) they're 'in charge' of something big and important. I don't think reddit closing off third party access will be enough to convince most of these people to stop giving labor for free.
- Maxburn 3y ago
  This is the thing I don't get, reddit is getting a heck of a free ride with all these mods. You'd think they would do everything within their power to enable them so why kick them in the nuts? Also the "power" users would probably be happy to pay reasonable prices to interact with it via app/api, so go ahead and charge something REASONABLE. There's something nefarious going on behind the scenes and it's all very suspicious. I'm happy to go back to targeted forums if I need to.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Indeed. I'd happily pay Reddit directly for an API key if that let me run RIF in a "bring your own key" mode. They could split the profits between themselves and app dev. I'm surprised no one is proposing this. But I guess this comes down to people willing and able to pay to avoid adtech cancer being actually the most profitable cohort for the advertisers...
    - tcrenshaw 3y ago
      I would have happily paid reddit directly for an API key before this debacle. Now I'm not so sure. On the bright side, avoiding reddit this week has shown me just how much time I waste on the site.
    - paulmd 3y ago
      > I'm surprised no one is proposing this. this is explicitly blocked by TOS. You can notionally do it by taking a "RedditIsFun" APK and injecting your own API key and then sideloading, but they'll do app store takedowns for any third-party app that supports it natively (because it's a TOS violation).
      - opello 3y ago
        Presumably one of the app store platform's terms of service?
        paulmd 3y ago
        it's part of the reddit terms of service. And in turn Apple has a policy of not hosting software that exists primarily to violate ToS. Google has a similar policy in general but sideloading makes it relatively pointless.
  - dehrmann 3y ago
    > You'd think they would do everything within their power to enable them so why kick them in the nuts? They're probably tracking revenue and engagement metrics. This happens in a lot of places. Everyone knows there's important infrastructure that keeps things working, but new user-facing projects are always more exciting. Even with physical infrastructure, it's more exciting to build new roads than fix potholes.
  - z3c0 3y ago
    I don't even think it's behind the scenes. It seems plain as day that they're trying to recoup the cost of their shitty website redesign and even shittier app. Since everybody is using third-party apps (which use the API), they pulled the most tonedeaf, corporatist approach and targeted those third-party apps. Instead, they should have dome some soul-searching to realize that they burned a money pile to make garbage because they decided their primary users were advertisers.
  - usefulcat 3y ago
    Where you assume malice, I would assume a combination of garden variety greed and short sightedness. Sometimes people do dumb things, it's pretty common really, even for 'people in charge of big things'.
  - seydor 3y ago
    Moderators are more than guilty of abusing their powers. Reddit should remove powers from them instead of enabling. They can easily find replacements
    - the_snooze 3y ago
      That's such an uncharitable view of Reddit moderation. Look at examples like /r/cfb and /r/collegebasketball for good hard-to-replace moderation. Game threads (and post-game discussions) are consistently formatted and on-topic. And the mods are able to invite coaches for AMAs with no drama.
    - Ecstatify 3y ago
      The people complaining about moderators are the very same people who don’t read the rules and complain that the moderators are on a power trip. I moderate a small sub 15K and the amount of spam is insane. I can’t imagine the amount of work involved in a 1M sub.
      - LordKeren 3y ago
        I'm a lead mod of a 1.5M+ sub and we maybe remove 1-2 bits of spam per week. Usually the very few that do get through our filters are quickly reported by the users and are removed long before it gains traction I realize giving reddit mod advice on HN is a bit weird, but here is what we've done that has significantly helped 1. Operate off a white list for links instead of a blacklist -- allow posts from domains like twitter, github or whatever is a normal for your community. Set up auto mod to filter any domains outside of the whitelist so mods can review and approve the appropriate ones 2. No URL shorteners at all. There are very good anti-url-shortener scripts for automod. Adding this cut out 90% of the spam we got Those are two suggestions that i would give to any subreddit. Here are some that you should carefully weigh before you implement 1. Set up automod to filter a post / comment if it gets to a certain threshold of reports. 2. Enforce a minimum karma amount & age to post w/ automod 3. Enforce a minimum karma amount to comment with a link w/ automod To give you a starting point -- even our large subreddit, our requirement to post is an account older than 6 hours and >0 Karma. For comments with a link, we do >25 karma
  - roastedoolong 3y ago
    [dead]
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? This is the sole, minuscule bit of power that most mods have in their lives. It’s sad.
bdowling 3y ago
> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? They like the power of being a moderator and smacking down people who break the rules. Usually they also like to bend the rules themselves to push a personal agenda, promoting what they like and squashing what they don’t like. It’s the same motivation people have to serve on HOA boards or elected government positions.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  And plenty of them are being paid, just not by reddit.
  - 93po 3y ago
    100% this. A moderator of any large subreddit has almost guaranteed been offered money to “sell it”. And if there’s any product associated to the subreddit, they get a ton of offers to promote said products. I know there are mods out there that easily make full time incomes from side hustles only possible bc they’re mods
- WesternWind 3y ago
  I mean that's a possible motivation for some folks, but not everyone. I know that when I've taken on unpaid positions of responsibility (not as a reddit mod but within my hobbyist community), it's because I cared about the organization and the people in it, and getting things right.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I'd love to see some hard data on your claims because this seems cynical to the point of being inaccurate As the creator and moderator of a 100k sub these are the last things on my mind - and same for the other moderators. The whole point of creating and moderating that was because 13 years ago I thought it was the best place to build a community that I wanted to exist. I have no idea if that's true for the moderators for /pics or whatever massive sub-reddits are, but I do know that for a lot, and especially the long tail subs and the folks I see in the /modcoord sub and discord, moderators are people who are interested in maintaining a community because they are interested in the affinity.
pgwhalen 3y ago
> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? The same reason you'd be a moderator for a non-profit, which is power.
- p_j_w 3y ago
  Maybe they give a shit about the community?
  - babypuncher 3y ago
    Yeah I'm pretty sure all these cynical comments are people who think Reddit is just huge spaces like /r/technology or /r/gaming_circlejerk. There are literally thousands of small subreddits run by people who actually care about their communities. I feel most of the hate here for all moderators is coming from people who believe there should be no moderation at all.
  - pgwhalen 3y ago
    Yeah I’d agree with that too. People who care about something often like to be in a position where they can impact the thing they care about. “Power” isn’t a totally cynical way of describing it.
    - 8note 3y ago
      I did it to learn some new skills. That's how I got good at css, among some other things You also get empathy for anyone who does have to deal with arbitrary internet commenters and posters
- babypuncher 3y ago
  So everyone who's ever run a forum is just a power hungre egomaniac?
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    forum admins own their work, reddit mods are doing free work for venture capitalists... these are not the same
micromacrofoot 3y ago
most moderators won't quit, they know if they do they'll be replaced, and most of them only do it because it's a power trip
LordKeren 3y ago
I’ll add my personal experience as a long-term lead mod of a subreddit for a specific video game. Broadly, I view subreddits are two camps: 1. Popcorn subreddits — r/pics, r/funny , r/twitterScreenshots 2. hobby & employment related During my time modding, I viewed the subreddit I ran as being very thoroughly in the second group. All the users shared an interest in a particular game. Myself and all the other mods were people that enjoyed the game first and foremost. We did not accept any moderator applications from users that were the prototypical Reddit mods and no one ever went on to join other mod teams. And I will say, it was honestly extremely fun. I got to build moderator tooling through the API that was interesting and had immediate real world use. Reddit moderation was the catalyst for becoming a developer myself and directly lead to my current career. I met a diverse group of people from across the globe and formed many lasting friendships with people I would have never met otherwise. Beyond that, it also gave me opportunities to learn more about video game production, go on studio tours, meet game developers, and have experiences that few others ever will. The mods on the team were not naive. We understood we were providing an extremely valuable service to both Reddit and the game developer for free— but for us, it was a mostly straight forward hobby that presented interesting logistical challenges. For years now, the status quo has been that Reddit may be making some obnoxious UX choices, but none of them had any actual affect on the moderator experience. Most mods were insulated from the changes because we used third party apps and old.Reddit. I think it is deeply unfortunate that Reddit moderation does attract some of the worst internet users and many people have very negative experiences and opinions when it comes to mods —but for some corners of the site, Reddit moderation was a genuinely enjoyable hobby shared with like minded friends.
- ansible 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing your experience. I was a mod for a while with /r/AskEngineers. It was never really that big of a subreddit, slowing crossing over 50K subscribers during my time there. And while small, we got to deal with all the usual issues any subreddit sees. In our case, it was conspiracy theorists "just asking questions" about the WTC tower collapse, school students asking people to do their school assignments for them, and stuff like that. In my time moderating /r/aiclass, I also got the experience of interacting with someone with a genuine mental illness. :-/ I didn't become a mod to win Internet points or for some kind of social status. I was just there to facilitate good conversation between engineers, so that we can help each other. I didn't mind the labor involved, and I just wanted to promote engineering as a discipline. There was just one active mod when I joined, and he started building up a good (if small) team. That continued through the years as people came and left, and we had a good crew when I resigned. I won't do it again anytime soon (maybe after I retire, who knows), but it was definitely worthwhile, and I hope I was able to make a difference for people.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Not all value is monetary. Some moderate because they like having a functioning community to take part in. They don't mind that the company is for-profit because everyone is winning. With these changes not everyone is winning anymore.
iterati 3y ago
I'm a Relay user on Android, and the creator of Relay has said he may need to charge $3/mo for the app (previously was a buy-once for $2). It's useful enough for me to pay that much, and Reddit has every incentive and right to charge for API access. I think they did the community a disservice with the tight timeline and how they communicated the change, but I can survive $3/mo to pay for a service that I have enjoyed for well over a decade now. I feel for moderators who have had to deal with crappy tools for so long and have had to rely on the API to get things done. I do question what Reddit has done with the VC money and the dev time they have put in. Their app is undeniably worse than the 3rd party alternatives, and the lack of decent mod tools that required the use of bots is something they should have sorted out YEARS ago. The lack of accessibility from their own app is also very questionable, and their response was to only allow not-for-profit accessibility tools to continue using the API for free. They should have addressed their shortcomings instead of features that have questionable utility, like real-time chat.
chaosbolt 3y ago
Because mods there get paid by external actors to promote X content and delete Y. It's been known for ever, do prople think these guys just shit money? And the "sensitive" content deletes itself?
dbbk 3y ago
Moderators of forums have rarely been paid, this is nothing new.

idiotsecant 3y ago

I don't think many moderators will actually quit as long as the users are there, especially since reddit gave back some moderator API call access. Moderating is already a terrible, thankless job. The people who do it enjoy moderating because (I assume) they're 'in charge' of something big and important. I don't think reddit closing off third party access will be enough to convince most of these people to stop giving labor for free.

Maxburn 3y ago
This is the thing I don't get, reddit is getting a heck of a free ride with all these mods. You'd think they would do everything within their power to enable them so why kick them in the nuts? Also the "power" users would probably be happy to pay reasonable prices to interact with it via app/api, so go ahead and charge something REASONABLE. There's something nefarious going on behind the scenes and it's all very suspicious. I'm happy to go back to targeted forums if I need to.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Indeed. I'd happily pay Reddit directly for an API key if that let me run RIF in a "bring your own key" mode. They could split the profits between themselves and app dev. I'm surprised no one is proposing this. But I guess this comes down to people willing and able to pay to avoid adtech cancer being actually the most profitable cohort for the advertisers...
  - tcrenshaw 3y ago
    I would have happily paid reddit directly for an API key before this debacle. Now I'm not so sure. On the bright side, avoiding reddit this week has shown me just how much time I waste on the site.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    > I'm surprised no one is proposing this. this is explicitly blocked by TOS. You can notionally do it by taking a "RedditIsFun" APK and injecting your own API key and then sideloading, but they'll do app store takedowns for any third-party app that supports it natively (because it's a TOS violation).
    - opello 3y ago
      Presumably one of the app store platform's terms of service?
      - paulmd 3y ago
        it's part of the reddit terms of service. And in turn Apple has a policy of not hosting software that exists primarily to violate ToS. Google has a similar policy in general but sideloading makes it relatively pointless.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > You'd think they would do everything within their power to enable them so why kick them in the nuts? They're probably tracking revenue and engagement metrics. This happens in a lot of places. Everyone knows there's important infrastructure that keeps things working, but new user-facing projects are always more exciting. Even with physical infrastructure, it's more exciting to build new roads than fix potholes.
- z3c0 3y ago
  I don't even think it's behind the scenes. It seems plain as day that they're trying to recoup the cost of their shitty website redesign and even shittier app. Since everybody is using third-party apps (which use the API), they pulled the most tonedeaf, corporatist approach and targeted those third-party apps. Instead, they should have dome some soul-searching to realize that they burned a money pile to make garbage because they decided their primary users were advertisers.
- usefulcat 3y ago
  Where you assume malice, I would assume a combination of garden variety greed and short sightedness. Sometimes people do dumb things, it's pretty common really, even for 'people in charge of big things'.
- seydor 3y ago
  Moderators are more than guilty of abusing their powers. Reddit should remove powers from them instead of enabling. They can easily find replacements
  - the_snooze 3y ago
    That's such an uncharitable view of Reddit moderation. Look at examples like /r/cfb and /r/collegebasketball for good hard-to-replace moderation. Game threads (and post-game discussions) are consistently formatted and on-topic. And the mods are able to invite coaches for AMAs with no drama.
  - Ecstatify 3y ago
    The people complaining about moderators are the very same people who don’t read the rules and complain that the moderators are on a power trip. I moderate a small sub 15K and the amount of spam is insane. I can’t imagine the amount of work involved in a 1M sub.
    - LordKeren 3y ago
      I'm a lead mod of a 1.5M+ sub and we maybe remove 1-2 bits of spam per week. Usually the very few that do get through our filters are quickly reported by the users and are removed long before it gains traction I realize giving reddit mod advice on HN is a bit weird, but here is what we've done that has significantly helped 1. Operate off a white list for links instead of a blacklist -- allow posts from domains like twitter, github or whatever is a normal for your community. Set up auto mod to filter any domains outside of the whitelist so mods can review and approve the appropriate ones 2. No URL shorteners at all. There are very good anti-url-shortener scripts for automod. Adding this cut out 90% of the spam we got Those are two suggestions that i would give to any subreddit. Here are some that you should carefully weigh before you implement 1. Set up automod to filter a post / comment if it gets to a certain threshold of reports. 2. Enforce a minimum karma amount & age to post w/ automod 3. Enforce a minimum karma amount to comment with a link w/ automod To give you a starting point -- even our large subreddit, our requirement to post is an account older than 6 hours and >0 Karma. For comments with a link, we do >25 karma
- roastedoolong 3y ago
  [dead]

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? This is the sole, minuscule bit of power that most mods have in their lives. It’s sad.

bdowling 3y ago

> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? They like the power of being a moderator and smacking down people who break the rules. Usually they also like to bend the rules themselves to push a personal agenda, promoting what they like and squashing what they don’t like. It’s the same motivation people have to serve on HOA boards or elected government positions.

pessimizer 3y ago
And plenty of them are being paid, just not by reddit.
- 93po 3y ago
  100% this. A moderator of any large subreddit has almost guaranteed been offered money to “sell it”. And if there’s any product associated to the subreddit, they get a ton of offers to promote said products. I know there are mods out there that easily make full time incomes from side hustles only possible bc they’re mods
WesternWind 3y ago
I mean that's a possible motivation for some folks, but not everyone. I know that when I've taken on unpaid positions of responsibility (not as a reddit mod but within my hobbyist community), it's because I cared about the organization and the people in it, and getting things right.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I'd love to see some hard data on your claims because this seems cynical to the point of being inaccurate As the creator and moderator of a 100k sub these are the last things on my mind - and same for the other moderators. The whole point of creating and moderating that was because 13 years ago I thought it was the best place to build a community that I wanted to exist. I have no idea if that's true for the moderators for /pics or whatever massive sub-reddits are, but I do know that for a lot, and especially the long tail subs and the folks I see in the /modcoord sub and discord, moderators are people who are interested in maintaining a community because they are interested in the affinity.

pgwhalen 3y ago

> why be a moderator for a for-profit company if you aren't being paid? The same reason you'd be a moderator for a non-profit, which is power.

p_j_w 3y ago
Maybe they give a shit about the community?
- babypuncher 3y ago
  Yeah I'm pretty sure all these cynical comments are people who think Reddit is just huge spaces like /r/technology or /r/gaming_circlejerk. There are literally thousands of small subreddits run by people who actually care about their communities. I feel most of the hate here for all moderators is coming from people who believe there should be no moderation at all.
- pgwhalen 3y ago
  Yeah I’d agree with that too. People who care about something often like to be in a position where they can impact the thing they care about. “Power” isn’t a totally cynical way of describing it.
  - 8note 3y ago
    I did it to learn some new skills. That's how I got good at css, among some other things You also get empathy for anyone who does have to deal with arbitrary internet commenters and posters
babypuncher 3y ago
So everyone who's ever run a forum is just a power hungre egomaniac?
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  forum admins own their work, reddit mods are doing free work for venture capitalists... these are not the same

micromacrofoot 3y ago

most moderators won't quit, they know if they do they'll be replaced, and most of them only do it because it's a power trip

LordKeren 3y ago

I’ll add my personal experience as a long-term lead mod of a subreddit for a specific video game. Broadly, I view subreddits are two camps: 1. Popcorn subreddits — r/pics, r/funny , r/twitterScreenshots 2. hobby & employment related During my time modding, I viewed the subreddit I ran as being very thoroughly in the second group. All the users shared an interest in a particular game. Myself and all the other mods were people that enjoyed the game first and foremost. We did not accept any moderator applications from users that were the prototypical Reddit mods and no one ever went on to join other mod teams. And I will say, it was honestly extremely fun. I got to build moderator tooling through the API that was interesting and had immediate real world use. Reddit moderation was the catalyst for becoming a developer myself and directly lead to my current career. I met a diverse group of people from across the globe and formed many lasting friendships with people I would have never met otherwise. Beyond that, it also gave me opportunities to learn more about video game production, go on studio tours, meet game developers, and have experiences that few others ever will. The mods on the team were not naive. We understood we were providing an extremely valuable service to both Reddit and the game developer for free— but for us, it was a mostly straight forward hobby that presented interesting logistical challenges. For years now, the status quo has been that Reddit may be making some obnoxious UX choices, but none of them had any actual affect on the moderator experience. Most mods were insulated from the changes because we used third party apps and old.Reddit. I think it is deeply unfortunate that Reddit moderation does attract some of the worst internet users and many people have very negative experiences and opinions when it comes to mods —but for some corners of the site, Reddit moderation was a genuinely enjoyable hobby shared with like minded friends.

ansible 3y ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. I was a mod for a while with /r/AskEngineers. It was never really that big of a subreddit, slowing crossing over 50K subscribers during my time there. And while small, we got to deal with all the usual issues any subreddit sees. In our case, it was conspiracy theorists "just asking questions" about the WTC tower collapse, school students asking people to do their school assignments for them, and stuff like that. In my time moderating /r/aiclass, I also got the experience of interacting with someone with a genuine mental illness. :-/ I didn't become a mod to win Internet points or for some kind of social status. I was just there to facilitate good conversation between engineers, so that we can help each other. I didn't mind the labor involved, and I just wanted to promote engineering as a discipline. There was just one active mod when I joined, and he started building up a good (if small) team. That continued through the years as people came and left, and we had a good crew when I resigned. I won't do it again anytime soon (maybe after I retire, who knows), but it was definitely worthwhile, and I hope I was able to make a difference for people.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Not all value is monetary. Some moderate because they like having a functioning community to take part in. They don't mind that the company is for-profit because everyone is winning. With these changes not everyone is winning anymore.

iterati 3y ago

I'm a Relay user on Android, and the creator of Relay has said he may need to charge $3/mo for the app (previously was a buy-once for $2). It's useful enough for me to pay that much, and Reddit has every incentive and right to charge for API access. I think they did the community a disservice with the tight timeline and how they communicated the change, but I can survive $3/mo to pay for a service that I have enjoyed for well over a decade now. I feel for moderators who have had to deal with crappy tools for so long and have had to rely on the API to get things done. I do question what Reddit has done with the VC money and the dev time they have put in. Their app is undeniably worse than the 3rd party alternatives, and the lack of decent mod tools that required the use of bots is something they should have sorted out YEARS ago. The lack of accessibility from their own app is also very questionable, and their response was to only allow not-for-profit accessibility tools to continue using the API for free. They should have addressed their shortcomings instead of features that have questionable utility, like real-time chat.

chaosbolt 3y ago

Because mods there get paid by external actors to promote X content and delete Y. It's been known for ever, do prople think these guys just shit money? And the "sensitive" content deletes itself?

dbbk 3y ago

Moderators of forums have rarely been paid, this is nothing new.