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Two questions: (1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory, ruled by a government that explicitly states it's de

Two questions: (1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory, ruled by a government that explicitly states it's desire to destroy it [1], backed up with routine rocket fire into Israeli population centers? (2) How exactly is Israel preventing the generation of electricity in Gaza? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant EDIT: grammar correction

batista 15y ago
(1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory Why do you think a newly found state (~65 years) has any right to claim the territory it occupies (except of the might makes right variety)? ruled by a government that explicitly states it's desire to destroy it [1] As opposed to a government that occupied the land from the previous inhabitants and has been steadily displacing them for decades? backed up with routine rocket fire into Israeli population centers? Backed up with routine genocide tactics...
- davidkatz 15y ago
  Sorry, but I can't see any actual response to my questions here, just further hate mongering. Israel does not claim Gaza. It withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005, and gave full control over to the Palestinian Authority. Israeli NGOs even invested tens of millions of dollars in boosting the Palestinian economy after the withdrawal. Either way, it's probably going to be very hard to have a reasoned discussion, so I'll just stop here.
  - alan_cx 15y ago
    Since when do reasonable criticism become hate mongering?
    - ugh 15y ago
      Calling what Israel does “genocide” is not reasonable. The euphemism (“genocide tactics”) doesn’t help.
      - batista 15y ago
        I think it is. Israel has a harsh dilemma. They want to keep their state (which is reasonable at this point), but on the other hand they don't want to share the power with Palestinians (which is not). They are also afraid that the Palestinian birth rate would have them outnumbered, and then what?. They use lots of tactics to ensure that the Palestinian population is confined --from import/export restrictions, to destroying their land for cultivation, to steadily expanding into other areas, etc. It's not genocide on the Hitler scale, but it's sure as hell, Ethnocide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide (That they "invested" into the area is laughable. What they did was they build companies to exploit cheap labour under very strict conditions. It's not like they enpowered any palestinians to become entrepreneurs. So it's investing in the same way Nike invested in building factories in Africa, etc.)
    - muuh-gnu 15y ago
      > when does reasonable criticism become hate mongering? From the point somebody starts to criticize Israel. Criticizing Israel, at least in the West, has become the modern day equivalent of religious blasphemy. All the usual tactics for protecting religion come into play: whining, playing offended, asserting persecution, while at the same time trying to totally and utterly destroy the critic by false accusations.
  - cabalamat 15y ago
    > It withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005, and gave full control over to the Palestinian Authority. That's not true. Israel continues to control what can be imported to of exported from Gaza.
- berntb 15y ago
  >>do you think a newly found state (~65 years) has any right to claim the territory it occupies (except of the might makes right variety)? Please explain to me, what makes Israel worse than all the other area changes after the world wars? Let's look at Karelia. Do you think the Finns should start bombarding St Petersburg with rocket artillery? (And would you expect such a mild response from Russia as Israeli has shown...?) The main difference I can see is that Israel makes for a good external enemy for a bunch of really disgusting dictators. >>Backed up with routine genocide tactics... Last time I checked the population growth in Gaza was one of the fastest on the planet. So you use the worst accusations possible to make as "arguments". Seems like hate propaganda to me. And so on. Get this subject of HN.
  - ak39 15y ago
    <Quote user=berntb> Please explain to me, what makes Israel worse than all the other area changes after the world wars? </Quote> Worse? Ok, I'll bite: It may not make it "worse" (sic) but it still doesn't make it right. Just because your form of abuse is not worse than others' does not make you right.
    - berntb 15y ago
      First, welcome to HN, since you created your first user account yesterday? >>It may not make it "worse" (sic) but it still doesn't make it right. The point was not right or wrong, I argued that there are totally different standards -- especially if you compare with the neighbouring countries which destroy many Palestinian refugees' lives to keep the question alive. You didn't answer that. See my other comment for more about the different standards: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3635315 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3635315 But if you really want to discuss the "worse" part, why should the Israeli question be treated differently than all other land areas? Edit: You don't want to "bite" on one of the fastest population increases on the planet called "genocide tactics"? If that is not hate propaganda, what is?!
      - batista 15y ago
        But if you really want to discuss the "worse" part, why should the Israeli question be treated differently than all other land areas? This is a wrong framing of the question. I don't think anyone wants to treat it differently than all other land areas in similar circumstances. ALL of those are wrong. Now, mention any other specific "land area" similar, and we can talk. But if you insist, I can think of some reasons this is to be treated differently: because Israel, despite being as abusive as other countries, is a favorite child of the West powers, and receives much more military, diplomatic and media support. Just an example: we hear for the persecution of gays, or twitter users, or women's right in Arab countries repeteadly. How many times do you hear about things such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehadrin_bus_lines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehadrin_bus_lines http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8969967/Orthodox-Jewish-millionaires-consider-segregated-bus-scheme.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/... or this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078771/Israel-braced-protests-treatment-women-girl-8-spat-Jewish-extremists.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078771/Israel-brace... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/27/naama-margolese_n_1170655.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/27/naama-margolese_n_1...
randomobserver 15y ago
The Palestenians are people of the Israeli state. How can their own land and their own people be "hostile territory"?

batista 15y ago

(1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory Why do you think a newly found state (~65 years) has any right to claim the territory it occupies (except of the might makes right variety)? ruled by a government that explicitly states it's desire to destroy it [1] As opposed to a government that occupied the land from the previous inhabitants and has been steadily displacing them for decades? backed up with routine rocket fire into Israeli population centers? Backed up with routine genocide tactics...

davidkatz 15y ago
Sorry, but I can't see any actual response to my questions here, just further hate mongering. Israel does not claim Gaza. It withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005, and gave full control over to the Palestinian Authority. Israeli NGOs even invested tens of millions of dollars in boosting the Palestinian economy after the withdrawal. Either way, it's probably going to be very hard to have a reasoned discussion, so I'll just stop here.
- alan_cx 15y ago
  Since when do reasonable criticism become hate mongering?
  - ugh 15y ago
    Calling what Israel does “genocide” is not reasonable. The euphemism (“genocide tactics”) doesn’t help.
    - batista 15y ago
      I think it is. Israel has a harsh dilemma. They want to keep their state (which is reasonable at this point), but on the other hand they don't want to share the power with Palestinians (which is not). They are also afraid that the Palestinian birth rate would have them outnumbered, and then what?. They use lots of tactics to ensure that the Palestinian population is confined --from import/export restrictions, to destroying their land for cultivation, to steadily expanding into other areas, etc. It's not genocide on the Hitler scale, but it's sure as hell, Ethnocide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide (That they "invested" into the area is laughable. What they did was they build companies to exploit cheap labour under very strict conditions. It's not like they enpowered any palestinians to become entrepreneurs. So it's investing in the same way Nike invested in building factories in Africa, etc.)
  - muuh-gnu 15y ago
    > when does reasonable criticism become hate mongering? From the point somebody starts to criticize Israel. Criticizing Israel, at least in the West, has become the modern day equivalent of religious blasphemy. All the usual tactics for protecting religion come into play: whining, playing offended, asserting persecution, while at the same time trying to totally and utterly destroy the critic by false accusations.
- cabalamat 15y ago
  > It withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005, and gave full control over to the Palestinian Authority. That's not true. Israel continues to control what can be imported to of exported from Gaza.
berntb 15y ago
>>do you think a newly found state (~65 years) has any right to claim the territory it occupies (except of the might makes right variety)? Please explain to me, what makes Israel worse than all the other area changes after the world wars? Let's look at Karelia. Do you think the Finns should start bombarding St Petersburg with rocket artillery? (And would you expect such a mild response from Russia as Israeli has shown...?) The main difference I can see is that Israel makes for a good external enemy for a bunch of really disgusting dictators. >>Backed up with routine genocide tactics... Last time I checked the population growth in Gaza was one of the fastest on the planet. So you use the worst accusations possible to make as "arguments". Seems like hate propaganda to me. And so on. Get this subject of HN.
- ak39 15y ago
  <Quote user=berntb> Please explain to me, what makes Israel worse than all the other area changes after the world wars? </Quote> Worse? Ok, I'll bite: It may not make it "worse" (sic) but it still doesn't make it right. Just because your form of abuse is not worse than others' does not make you right.
  - berntb 15y ago
    First, welcome to HN, since you created your first user account yesterday? >>It may not make it "worse" (sic) but it still doesn't make it right. The point was not right or wrong, I argued that there are totally different standards -- especially if you compare with the neighbouring countries which destroy many Palestinian refugees' lives to keep the question alive. You didn't answer that. See my other comment for more about the different standards: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3635315 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3635315 But if you really want to discuss the "worse" part, why should the Israeli question be treated differently than all other land areas? Edit: You don't want to "bite" on one of the fastest population increases on the planet called "genocide tactics"? If that is not hate propaganda, what is?!
    - batista 15y ago
      But if you really want to discuss the "worse" part, why should the Israeli question be treated differently than all other land areas? This is a wrong framing of the question. I don't think anyone wants to treat it differently than all other land areas in similar circumstances. ALL of those are wrong. Now, mention any other specific "land area" similar, and we can talk. But if you insist, I can think of some reasons this is to be treated differently: because Israel, despite being as abusive as other countries, is a favorite child of the West powers, and receives much more military, diplomatic and media support. Just an example: we hear for the persecution of gays, or twitter users, or women's right in Arab countries repeteadly. How many times do you hear about things such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehadrin_bus_lines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehadrin_bus_lines http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8969967/Orthodox-Jewish-millionaires-consider-segregated-bus-scheme.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/... or this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078771/Israel-braced-protests-treatment-women-girl-8-spat-Jewish-extremists.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078771/Israel-brace... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/27/naama-margolese_n_1170655.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/27/naama-margolese_n_1...

randomobserver 15y ago

The Palestenians are people of the Israeli state. How can their own land and their own people be "hostile territory"?