7 ms·

It's funny to think that the fantasy/speculative fiction trope of "precursor civilization that has advanced tech" was probably grounded in the historical memory

It's funny to think that the fantasy/speculative fiction trope of "precursor civilization that has advanced tech" was probably grounded in the historical memory of people happening upon ruins, weapons and artifacts of extraordinary craftsmanship.

automatic6131 3y ago
I think it might be a general bias in the human psyche. When you're born, you're utterly dependent on the gods that are your parents (and extended village, to a greater or lesser extent) and this has selected for a bias in the human brain that expresses itself as "older people good, oldest people better". I base this only on finding the trope of "precursor civilisation/society with the best tech" in literature from across the globe.
- spaceman_2020 3y ago
  Before written text and easy access to books and knowledge, you also relied on the experience and skills of older people to learn and make your way in the world.
beloch 3y ago
Such myths are likely based on classical Rome rather than bronze age discoveries. For several centuries after the Western empire fell apart, Europeans lacked the capability to build settlements or structures anywhere close to the size typical of classical Roman civilization. Populations were depressed by pestilence, social order had declined, and most Europeans were within a short distance from a former Roman settlement of a size larger than they'd ever seen populated in their lives. The Eastern empire was a little different, but Western Europe was pretty much fubar in the early middle ages. Although technology steadily progressed throughout the middle ages, it took centuries for population and social organization to return to anywhere near classical levels. If you lived during the early middle age, it was an unmistakable fact that a great "precursor civilization" capable of wonders far beyond what your own civilization was capable of had lived and fallen long before you were born. With colossal roman ruins scattered across Europe, there was no need to look to the bronze age for a fallen civilization.
- cubefox 3y ago
  There was also purely intellectual evidence from an advanced civilization, in form of surviving books by Greek philosophers, mathematicians and astronomers.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    The epic of Gilgamesh starts out talking about the distant past.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  It goes further back than that. In 400BC, Xenophon, while retreating from a failed attempt at taking Babylon, came across the abandoned ruins of a bunch of Assyrian cities, like Nineveh and wrote about them. 200 years after being abandoned, they were far more impressive than anything Xenophon would have seen in his home country. For example, Athens at that point had a city wall(the Themistoclean wall) approximately 5 miles circumference, made of rubble, 30' tall, 10' thick at the base Compare to what Xenophon saw at Nineveh: A city wall 7.5 miles circumference, made of stone and brick, 55' tall and up to 50' thick. The most impressive structures he would have ever seen - just out in the middle of nowhere, absolutely abandoned.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    The Fall of Civilizations podcast episode on the Assyrians starts with Xenophon's experience.
  - thom 3y ago
    Just a quick plug for the marvellous Landmark edition of Xenophon’s Anabasis: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landmark-Xenophons-Anabasis-Shane-Brennan/dp/030790685X https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landmark-Xenophons-Anabasis-Shane-B... Beautiful book with lots of maps and illustrations covering the journey mentioned above, if that’s anyone’s bag.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  Most of what you wrote was true for the most of the Mediterranean after the Bronze Age collapse too. That is why the Greeks and Romans also had such myths, remember Atlantis is something that seemingly originated with Plato.
Tuna-Fish 3y ago
Almost everywhere on earth, there have been many regional collapses in different times. This is enough for a corpus of stories about mythical, great past to be created, survive through the highwater mark of the next cycle of civilization (which was usually higher than the previous great past), and provide context during the next collapse and it's aftermath. When Roman power in the West collapsed, and, for example, the remaining population of Arles retreated into the amphitheater of their previously much greater and more prosperous city, building a fortification in the middle and from the ruins of what used to be before, there were almost certainly people among them who could recite Hesiod. I just for some reason find this so trippy.
svachalek 3y ago
And oral history I'm sure. We will probably never know how advanced and widespread some of these ancient technologies are but the existence of artifacts that are far, far ahead of anything we would expect historically (e.g. Antikythera Mechanism, Gobekli Tepe) suggests there are some big, big holes in our records of the past.
- holoduke 3y ago
  I find the ancient stone works the best evidence for some kind of advanced civilization in the far past. (No not aliens). Some date back 10.000 years ago. The precision and similarities between different sites all over the world is incredible. We are just in the beginning of this research field.
- George83728 3y ago
  I don't think anybody really thought much about it before the discovery of the Antikythera Mechanism, but at least in retrospect there seem to be clear reference to such devices in ancient contemporary literature. Particularly, Cicero described such devices and attributed them to Archimedes.

automatic6131 3y ago

I think it might be a general bias in the human psyche. When you're born, you're utterly dependent on the gods that are your parents (and extended village, to a greater or lesser extent) and this has selected for a bias in the human brain that expresses itself as "older people good, oldest people better". I base this only on finding the trope of "precursor civilisation/society with the best tech" in literature from across the globe.

spaceman_2020 3y ago
Before written text and easy access to books and knowledge, you also relied on the experience and skills of older people to learn and make your way in the world.

beloch 3y ago

Such myths are likely based on classical Rome rather than bronze age discoveries. For several centuries after the Western empire fell apart, Europeans lacked the capability to build settlements or structures anywhere close to the size typical of classical Roman civilization. Populations were depressed by pestilence, social order had declined, and most Europeans were within a short distance from a former Roman settlement of a size larger than they'd ever seen populated in their lives. The Eastern empire was a little different, but Western Europe was pretty much fubar in the early middle ages. Although technology steadily progressed throughout the middle ages, it took centuries for population and social organization to return to anywhere near classical levels. If you lived during the early middle age, it was an unmistakable fact that a great "precursor civilization" capable of wonders far beyond what your own civilization was capable of had lived and fallen long before you were born. With colossal roman ruins scattered across Europe, there was no need to look to the bronze age for a fallen civilization.

cubefox 3y ago
There was also purely intellectual evidence from an advanced civilization, in form of surviving books by Greek philosophers, mathematicians and astronomers.
- detourdog 3y ago
  The epic of Gilgamesh starts out talking about the distant past.
oh_sigh 3y ago
It goes further back than that. In 400BC, Xenophon, while retreating from a failed attempt at taking Babylon, came across the abandoned ruins of a bunch of Assyrian cities, like Nineveh and wrote about them. 200 years after being abandoned, they were far more impressive than anything Xenophon would have seen in his home country. For example, Athens at that point had a city wall(the Themistoclean wall) approximately 5 miles circumference, made of rubble, 30' tall, 10' thick at the base Compare to what Xenophon saw at Nineveh: A city wall 7.5 miles circumference, made of stone and brick, 55' tall and up to 50' thick. The most impressive structures he would have ever seen - just out in the middle of nowhere, absolutely abandoned.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  The Fall of Civilizations podcast episode on the Assyrians starts with Xenophon's experience.
- thom 3y ago
  Just a quick plug for the marvellous Landmark edition of Xenophon’s Anabasis: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landmark-Xenophons-Anabasis-Shane-Brennan/dp/030790685X https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landmark-Xenophons-Anabasis-Shane-B... Beautiful book with lots of maps and illustrations covering the journey mentioned above, if that’s anyone’s bag.
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Most of what you wrote was true for the most of the Mediterranean after the Bronze Age collapse too. That is why the Greeks and Romans also had such myths, remember Atlantis is something that seemingly originated with Plato.

Tuna-Fish 3y ago

Almost everywhere on earth, there have been many regional collapses in different times. This is enough for a corpus of stories about mythical, great past to be created, survive through the highwater mark of the next cycle of civilization (which was usually higher than the previous great past), and provide context during the next collapse and it's aftermath. When Roman power in the West collapsed, and, for example, the remaining population of Arles retreated into the amphitheater of their previously much greater and more prosperous city, building a fortification in the middle and from the ruins of what used to be before, there were almost certainly people among them who could recite Hesiod. I just for some reason find this so trippy.

svachalek 3y ago

And oral history I'm sure. We will probably never know how advanced and widespread some of these ancient technologies are but the existence of artifacts that are far, far ahead of anything we would expect historically (e.g. Antikythera Mechanism, Gobekli Tepe) suggests there are some big, big holes in our records of the past.

holoduke 3y ago
I find the ancient stone works the best evidence for some kind of advanced civilization in the far past. (No not aliens). Some date back 10.000 years ago. The precision and similarities between different sites all over the world is incredible. We are just in the beginning of this research field.
George83728 3y ago
I don't think anybody really thought much about it before the discovery of the Antikythera Mechanism, but at least in retrospect there seem to be clear reference to such devices in ancient contemporary literature. Particularly, Cicero described such devices and attributed them to Archimedes.