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Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
- prox 3y agoThis is really impressive, like it was made yesterday and put in the mud! Side note, I read this domain as “New Singer Many.com” at first :P
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jdwithit 3y agoSame, I had to facepalm when the logo loaded indicating the correct name heh.
- Apreche 3y agoWhat kind of news site is this? Seems fake. Not reported anywhere else.
- throwaway_20357 3y agoWas all over the news in Germany today: https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article245860994/Archaeologie-Aussergewoehnlicher-Schwertfund-in-Noerdlingen.html https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article245860994/Archaeologie... https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre-altes-schwert-von-archaeologen-in-schwaben-gefunden-18964960.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre... https://www.schwaebische.de/regional/ostalb/archaeologen-finden-3000-jahre-altes-schwert-1688205 https://www.schwaebische.de/regional/ostalb/archaeologen-fin...
- marginalia_nu 3y ago> Alle Artikel sind aus der Originalquelle übersetzt. Wir betreiben einen Übersetzungsdienst, um Englischsprachigen in Deutschland zu helfen, zu verstehen, was in ganz Deutschland passiert. All articles are translated from the original source. We run a translation service to help English speakers in Germany understand what's happening across Germany. But yeah, it has strong freebooting energy.
- constantcrying 3y ago>But yeah, it has strong freebooting energy. The FAZ and Zeit articles are just copy pasted from the dpa, which is why they are identical. I am sure they payed for them, but I can't say I am particularly sorry for them. Welt was the one article I saw which included some more info and a few more pictures.
- Gys 3y agoThe link is a translation. At the bottom is a source link: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre-altes-schwert-von-archaeologen-in-schwaben-gefunden-18964960.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre...
- roelschroeven 3y agoThat's the website of the Frankfurter Algemeine, which (as far as I know) is a reputable German newspaper.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cheese_van 3y agoNot fake but rather breaking news. Bavarian State Office for the Care of Monuments official press release was yesterday, the 14th: https://www.blfd.bayern.de/mam/blfd/presse/pi_bronzezeitliches_schwert.pdf https://www.blfd.bayern.de/mam/blfd/presse/pi_bronzezeitlich... But what a beautiful sword!
- mc32 3y agoIt is! Why is the hilt at the end instead of the end of the blade?
- sephlietz 3y agoWith the caveat that I'm not an expert, that's the pommel (hilt is the entire handle) and it is at the bottom to prevent the sword from slipping out of your hand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt
- mc32 3y agoHeh, you're right on both counts; thanks! Looks like the pommel at the end acts as a counterweight for heavy swords.
- mtrower 3y agoYeah, think about how leverage works, those things really suck to swing around and manipulate if you just bang them out without consideration for balance. Especially the larger ones...
- Apreche 3y agoGlad to be wrong!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- excalibur 3y agoIt's my buddy Klauss! I haven't seen him in ages!
- lordleft 3y agoIt's funny to think that the fantasy/speculative fiction trope of "precursor civilization that has advanced tech" was probably grounded in the historical memory of people happening upon ruins, weapons and artifacts of extraordinary craftsmanship.
- automatic6131 3y agoI think it might be a general bias in the human psyche. When you're born, you're utterly dependent on the gods that are your parents (and extended village, to a greater or lesser extent) and this has selected for a bias in the human brain that expresses itself as "older people good, oldest people better". I base this only on finding the trope of "precursor civilisation/society with the best tech" in literature from across the globe.
- spaceman_2020 3y agoBefore written text and easy access to books and knowledge, you also relied on the experience and skills of older people to learn and make your way in the world.
- beloch 3y agoSuch myths are likely based on classical Rome rather than bronze age discoveries. For several centuries after the Western empire fell apart, Europeans lacked the capability to build settlements or structures anywhere close to the size typical of classical Roman civilization. Populations were depressed by pestilence, social order had declined, and most Europeans were within a short distance from a former Roman settlement of a size larger than they'd ever seen populated in their lives. The Eastern empire was a little different, but Western Europe was pretty much fubar in the early middle ages. Although technology steadily progressed throughout the middle ages, it took centuries for population and social organization to return to anywhere near classical levels. If you lived during the early middle age, it was an unmistakable fact that a great "precursor civilization" capable of wonders far beyond what your own civilization was capable of had lived and fallen long before you were born. With colossal roman ruins scattered across Europe, there was no need to look to the bronze age for a fallen civilization.
- Luc 3y agoMore nice pictures here, very metal: https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article245860994/Archaeologie-Aussergewoehnlicher-Schwertfund-in-Noerdlingen.html https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article245860994/Archaeologie...
- idiotsecant 3y agoWow! That really does look like it's in good shape. I understand it's because bronze doesn't oxidize as readily but it's not what I picture when someone says 3000 year old sword.
- masklinn 3y agoFwiw bronze does oxidise quite readily, but the copper oxide is not porous, and becomes a resilient copper carbonate. Which is why bronze and other copper-alloy artefacts are extremely resilient, unless they come in contact with chlorides and get bronze disease.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoI can tell you have some experience with old bronze/copper. Most people do not even know what "bronze disease" is.
- brohee 3y agoA lot of people learned about it when tutorials on inducing it on statues of questionable personnalities sprouted up.
- rurp 3y agoSame here. With something that old I was expecting "well preserved" to mean that I could probably make out that it has the shape of a sword.
- mikewarot 3y agoThe arrow points are pretty amazing too
- automatic6131 3y agoWhat stands out to me is the pommel with the large handhold. That makes me think that it's a slashing sword, not a stabbing one. Then there's the fact that it's all metal, unlike how most ancient and medieval swords which were made with an handle of organic material around the tang of the blade. Probably not intended (ever) for use in fighting? Since it doesn't have a replacable handle.
- ftxbro 3y ago> "What stands out to me is the pommel with the large handhold. That makes me think that it's a slashing sword, not a stabbing one." it looks like the pommel of a rondel dagger which is as stabby as it gets
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoIf the handle is metal, why would it ever need to be replaced? It's not going to rot, and it's not going to break.
- civilitty 3y agoIt’s not that the handle is going to rot, it’s that there’s zero shock absorption. The fact that it doesn’t have a replaceable handle probably means that it’s for ceremonial purposes, not fighting. Hitting another sword with it would be exhausting and painful.
- adrian_b 3y agoI doubt that "shock absorption" would have been a problem. This kind of sword would not have been used like a hammer. The wavy pattern on the bronze handle would have ensured a firm grip even with a sweaty or wet hand. I have some Japanese Tojiro kitchen knives, which have stainless steel handles with a similar pattern on the handle, and they are more comfortable than most of the knife handles made of wood or plastic, especially when used with a dirty hand. So based on this experience, I do not believe that such a bronze handle would have been a serious disadvantage, even if it is possible that the sword was purely ceremonial.
- Archelaos 3y agoThe article is somewhat sensationalistic. Finding an octagonal type bronze sword ("Achtkantschwert" in German) from that period is rare, but we have quite a couple of them. Since bronze does not rust, the conditions of such swords are often quite good (and typically far better than that of medieval iron swords, for instance). Here is a map of the distribution of octagonal-hilted swords in Europe: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-showing-the-distribution-of-all-octagonal-hilted-swords-in-Europe-as-well-as-the_fig6_334508848 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-showing-the-distribu... As you can easily see, there are two clearly separated areas where these swords were found. The following article (PDF, in German, including an English abstract and some nice photos) explores the possible (dis-)connection between the two areas: https://goedoc.uni-goettingen.de/bitstream/handle/1/8646/pz.2011.012%20(1)_Bunnefeld.pdf https://goedoc.uni-goettingen.de/bitstream/handle/1/8646/pz....
- zulban 3y ago>somewhat sensationalistic What a cynical comment. The title doesn't even say rare, and there's only a few dozen found in "all of Europe", ever. What could possibly be seen as sensationalist here? Thanks for your excellent sources, however. I know it's trendy to say sensationalist, and it's often true. Just seems like a lazy thing to write in this case.
- pessimizer 3y ago"Somewhat sensationalistic" ranks somewhere around "slightly uncomfortable" or "a little misleading" on the cynicism scale. I know it's trendy to write entire comments responding to a single, passing word usage in someone else's comment, but...
- mtrower 3y agoI wouldn't say it's used in passing. I'd say it's the entire point of their comment. Whether the usage was reasonable I don't feel qualified to comment on.
- Archelaos 3y ago
- beanjuice 3y agoIs there a website where you can view chronologically interesting archaelogical finds? Like a timeline of what has popped up from the ground made by human hands?
- ct0 3y agohttps://www.archaeology.org/news https://www.archaeology.org/news
- OJFord 3y agoI think GP means chronologically as in (best estimate) age of the artefact, not the time of discovery.
- wnissen 3y agoI highly, highly recommend A History of the World in 100 Objects (particularly the out of print 2011 hardback, which is not available from any non-Amazon sources I could find.) As you can guess from the title, it tells the story of human history through archaeological finds. They are all from the British Museum, so it wouldn't include something like the sword from the OP, but given that independence from the British is the most widely celebrated holiday in the world, it's nearly comprehensive. https://www.amazon.com/History-World-100-Objects/dp/0670022705 https://www.amazon.com/History-World-100-Objects/dp/06700227...
- jdlyga 3y agoCallandor... The sword that is not a sword.
- dabluecaboose 3y ago>A man, a woman and a youth were buried in it. It is still unclear what relationship the people may have had to one another. Yeah, real puzzler that one
- yamazakiwi 3y agoRag tag group of friends obviously
- werds 3y agoskiffle band
- civilitty 3y agoThe woman and child were clearly put there for ceremonial purposes.
- lalos 3y agoVikings used to that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_funeral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_funeral as described by Ahmad ibn Fadlan
- deely3 3y agoProbably roommates.
- InitialLastName 3y agoThere may be a single, overwhelmingly likely option, but absent DNA testing or further context clues we can't know for sure. Let's not snark the one science journalist who isn't adding baseless speculation to their article.
- kitd 3y agoShame. Missed opportunity to editorialise it to "Ineffective Rust" ;)
- coldpie 3y agoIt blows my mind that these godawful cookie banners is where we ended up. Web devs, you clowns need get your shit together. No, the law doesn't require you to do this. Go back to the drawing board and do better.
- kokanee 3y agoAgree with the sentiment, disagree with the assignment of blame. Blame legal, marketing, design, or PM. No web dev decided this was how they wanted to spend a day.
- ryandrake 3y agoTo be fair, the web developers are the ones actually typing in the code and deploying it. They must share at least partial blame. This whole "Don't blame me! Boss told me to do it" attitude is rampant in software.
- thot_experiment 3y agoBig agree with this sentiment, personal responsibility/dev mutiny/collective action could go a long way toward making the world less garbage.
- kfrzcode 3y agoyes individualism is the answer; collectivism is also the solution, everyone should do what they think is the morally correct thing and the whole garbage pile will suddenly go away, nobody will starve and Great Leaders will be no more. This has always worked in the past. Leadership be damned! I am important and smart enough to do the right thing!
- rocketbop 3y agoI also agree with you. And the legal or marketing team that asked for it all have bosses too asking them for certain things.
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- 404mm 3y agoThe level of details and craftsmanship is amazing considering how old it is.
- mistrial9 3y agoplenty of earlier civilizations had better crafts than we do now.. Second, existing society has lost its crafts.. example 17th century French goldsmithing that is not reproducible today
- 404mm 3y agoI completely agree. A few hundred years ago is somewhat understandable. It’s the peak before electricity allowed further progression (and demise). To me, 3k years ago is a bit more shocking, when I compare it with items from 5-10th century.
- csomar 3y agoIt’s german quality!
- taylorbuley 3y agoHere's the original source: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre-altes-schwert-von-archaeologen-in-schwaben-gefunden-18964960.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/3000-jahre...
- techwiz137 3y agoThe shape, intricate detail, not something I would have expected from a civilization 3000 years ago. The more you know.
- spaceman_2020 3y agoWell, the famous mask of Tutankhamun was dated to 1323 BCE. Plenty of older artefacts than 3000 years ago that are equally impressive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_of_Tutankhamun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_of_Tutankhamun
- AHOHA 3y agoNow that valuable piece must be saved and taken care of, and there’s no where else except the British museum!! ;)
- ChuckMcM 3y agoI collect swords, and this is a nice example. When researching swords from the medieval period I found this technique of starting with an octagonal "bar" of stock material and then using a hammer to shape the blade while leaving a round segment for the handle to be interesting. It makes sense of course, although it can make for an uncomfortable handle (hence the wrapped handles in more modern swords.)
- trilbyglens 3y agoThe article mentions that the handles were often cast over the blade.
- contingencies 3y agoCool, what's your oldest sword and where does it come from? Do you display them or just collect them? I have a friend in Australia with a fairly significant knife (not sword) collection which will be for sale shortly (aged owner), let me know if interested.
- ChuckMcM 3y agoI too have knives in my collection, and would be interested but generally shipping things from Australia is hecka expensive too. Generally, I add things, with interesting stories to my collection. My oldest sword is privileged information but my favorite is the first one I got. In 1990 I was visiting Edinburgh on business for Sun, and I wanted a Claymore in celebration of my Scottish ancestry. At the Haymarket, I met an antique salesperson who let me in on the sad truth that a "real" one would set me back $40,000+ in 1990 dollars. But he mentioned that the British Museum sometimes sold "extras", swords which weren't particularly significant or not something they were going to add to the collection but selling them raised funds to cover costs. And he gave me the number of a curator of the Arms and Armor section of the museum. I called and spoke to the curator who told me that no, they didn't have, nor would they sell me a sword from their collection, but they did do business with a swordsmith in Whitburn who they sometimes used to make copies of swords in their collection so that they could display the copy and preserve the original. This smith had worked with them for years and made a point about re-creating the original process as closely as possible. The curator gave me contact information for the swordsmith[1]. I called the swordsmith and explained to him what I was trying to accomplish and he understood right away but explained that it would be expensive. Making these copies often took months to make. I told him that was okay and asked what he would charge me, his answer was 1,500 pounds[2], 750 up front and 750 on completion. He had a sword he was making for the museum and it would make a good template for the one he would make me. I agreed to his terms and across a bunch of timezones on two different continents managed to arrange a wire transfer to his account for the 750 pounds. I returned from Scotland and told my wife the whole thing and she was skeptical and thought I had burned up $2,000 on a silly idea. About five and a half months letter I get a telegram (yes, honest to goodness "YOUR SWORD IS READY STOP SEND BALANCE STOP ..." etc kind of thing. I called him on the phone and he agreed to make a crate for it and to ship it via counter to counter service of British Airlines (they had a couple of different non-stop flights to SFO). We had a discussion about customs and duties and whether or not I wanted the sword tempered as it would have been in the 15th century, or not. The plan was to not temper it, making it somewhat useless as a "real" sword, and declaring it as a "Work of art, made of metal" (no duty required). He gave me the flight number they would ship it on and I wired him the rest of the funds. A few days later I went to SFO to pick it up, inquired at the BA desk and they redirected me to customs. I went to customs and they said, "This isn't a work of art, this is a sword. You owe 10% duty on it." I tried to explain to them that the Venus de Milo was just some pottery with no arms but they were having none of it. They stuck firm and asked what I paid for it. I told them "1,500" so they charged me $150 duty.He didn't ask the units, and I didn't offer :-). A bit less than a year later, the smith called me and explained that he had thrown out his rotator cup (shoulder injury) which made it impossible for him to make swords. He had someone looking for a Claymore and they would pay 5,000 pounds for it, would I be interested in selling mine. And I said "No, this is something I want my kids to inherit." [1] A place called Whitburn Arms. [2] The exchange rate at the time made this somewhere between $3,000 and $4,000 USD.
- neonate 3y agohttps://archive.ph/xqqOx https://archive.ph/xqqOx http://web.archive.org/web/20230615154129/https://newsingermany.com/archaeologists-find-3000-year-old-sword/ http://web.archive.org/web/20230615154129/https://newsingerm...
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- philomath_mn 3y agoPlease keep LLM responses off of HN
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- leobg 3y agoThis is mindblowing. Here we are, 3000 years in the future. But how many of us could make such a “primitive” thing?
- mtrower 3y agoTo be fair, how many of the populace 3000 years ago could make such a thing?
- mcbutterbunz 3y agoHow many people could make them 3000 years ago? Im curious how many blacksmiths there were back then with the appropriate skill and resources to learn it and do it well. I feel as if there are still a surprising number of people that could make a sword today, although maybe not from raw resources.
- stinkbutt 3y agoit was one of the most popular and widespread occupations
- fnordpiglet 3y agoI think it’s more accurate to say most communities had a blacksmith. “Farmer” was the most popular and widespread occultations. A community at that time didn’t require a ton of specialized labor, they needed more people using the output of a blacksmith.
- z3phyr 3y agoUnlike how popular culture depicts, blacksmiths seldom operated alone. A village would have a big team of blacksmiths, including many acolytes.
- foobar1962 3y ago> Im curious how many blacksmiths there were back then... The sword is bronze, blacksmiths work with iron. Bronze is usually cast, iron is usually forged (heated and hit with a hammer).
- barrenko 3y agoUmm there can be only one?
- avereveard 3y agoYou'd think a civilization 3000 years in the future would take more than a couple questionable resolution pictures.
- fuzztester 3y agoHad to enable JavaScript to be able to view the images on the original site. Is there any technical reason why this is needed, or they just did it that way?
- foobar1962 3y agoA question for the metallurgists: how would a bronze sword compare to an iron sword, even if the iron is low quality (ie, impurities, not heat treated etc)?
- hacoo 3y agoNot a metallurgist but — my understanding is that pure iron weapons are quite inferior to bronze. Pure iron is very soft and ductile. It would not hold an edge well and is easily bent - to the point that some sources say they would need to be repeatedly un-bent during battle. Another advantage of bronze weapons is they could be cast in a mold instead of forged. Iron was much more plentiful than copper and tin however (especially as they were mined out), which was the main reason bronze fell out of use. Good steel was superior to both, but much harder to make.
- 12907835202 3y agoOdd that it says 3000 years ago. The start of the Wikipedia entry on bronze swords says they appeared in 17BC which is of course only 2000 years ago.
- 12907835202 3y agoI've realised my mistake there. Embarrassing. I've no ability to edit though, never noticed that before. I guess I never had the need.
- liberty-dreamer 3y ago[dead]
- donohoe 3y agoAnd whomever shall pull the sword from the stone becomes king/queen of what exactly? Asking for a friend.
- RadixDLT 3y agoI can see why neanderthals went extinct
- tracerbulletx 3y agoTime between Neanderthals and this sword: 37000 years. Time between this sword and drones and nuclear weapons: 5000 years.
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