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I've compiled some data. Regarding Portugal (which decriminalized all drugs in 2001), according to the Drug Policy Foundation, a pro-legalization advocacy grou

I've compiled some data. Regarding Portugal (which decriminalized all drugs in 2001), according to the Drug Policy Foundation, a pro-legalization advocacy group, drug deaths initially dropped (2003-2010) but have since returned to pre-legalization levels(2015+). https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... In the United States on the other hand, the number of drug-involved overdose deaths increased from 20,000 in 2000 to 106,000 in 2021. https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd... Of course there are several US specific factors that contributed to the 5x increase (prescription opioids -> fentanyl), but if you allow yourself to imagine that not everyone can set sensible limits for themselves - then liberalization reveals itself as rather selfish.

tfourb 3y ago
From your first source, directly contradicting your interpretation of what it says: "In the first five years after the reforms, drug deaths dropped dramatically. They rose slightly in the following years, before returning to 2005 levels in 2011, with only 10 drug overdose deaths recorded in that year. Since 2011, drug deaths have risen again but remain below 2001 levels (when there were 76 recorded deaths)." The point of de-criminalization is that people that "can't set limits for themselves" are treated as patients, not criminals.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  We all know how to read a graph. In fact, I noticed that the deaths graph cuts off earlier in this article than all of the other time-year charts which is indicative of cherrypicking. Looking at their source data [0], looks like deaths are now ~2x those at 2001 levels (~1 death per million). [0]: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2022_en https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-develop...
  - tfourb 3y ago
    The source you link says that Portugal had a total of 68 drug-induced deaths in 2019, corresponding to 10 per million. In 2001 there were 76 deaths, corresponding to about 7.3 deaths per million. So overdose deaths rose slightly relative to the total population (they did not double). But for this to be a valid argument about the merits of Portugal's drug policy, you'd have to control for other factors like the types of drugs being used, comorbidities, age, etc. You are accusing a source (which you originally cited to support your own point) of cherrypicking but you are doing a lot of that yourself. What would be helpful would be an actual peer-reviewed study on the effects of the policy (which by the way has evolved and became quite a bit more restrictive after ca. 2015).
    - IceHegel 3y ago
      > drug deaths have increased each year without fail So circling back to my original claim, it's certainly true in the US (see NIH source above). As for Portugal, it appears to be technically wrong because even though drug deaths are now above the 2001 pre legalization level, first there was a period of decline. However, I think my larger point stands even if it's unpopular, which is that legalization is empirically quite a selfish policy that is today masquerading as humanitarian.
      - tfourb 3y ago
        I don't see any "empirical" evidence for your claim. I think it also betrays a fundamental misunderstanding, of the policies that are implemented by most countries. While "legalization" is the popular term for what is happening, professionals tend to talk of "harm reduction," because that is what is what is intended and also better describes what is actually happening in most cases. Most drugs are still illegal in Portugal and will remain so in Germany. I don't think there is a single country where Heroin is legal, Cocaine is legal only in a small number of South/Central American countries and even Cannabis is only legal in about 6 countries (and de facto parts of the US) worldwide. There is no broad movement that advocates a low-regulation distribution of all/most drugs in any country that I'm aware of. What is happening is that more and more countries treat drug use not as a criminal matter, but a public health issue. With the possible exception of Cannabis (where the risks seem so comparable to alcohol that it makes intuitive sense to many people to treat it at least broadly similar), the debate is not about legalization per se, but about how to effectively reduce consumption and the risks associated with it. This is where needle exchange programs, "drug checks," injection spaces, come from: They drastically reduce the harms associated with the use of certain drugs by improving the health outcomes of drug users. Combined with de-criminilization policies, they also provide the basis for health professionals to engage with drug users and start interventions. I really don't see anything "selfish" or "late empire" in that approach, maybe except that it will reduce my payments to the public health system long term.
kranke155 3y ago
You’re ignoring the HIV/AIDS pandemic that was happening amongst drug users in PT. That was dramatically lowered. You also said it led to increased drug deaths. It very clearly has not led to increased drug deaths. It’s stabilised to a similar level as it was 20 years ago. There are multiple factors to a successful drug decriminalisation and harm reduction policy. I’ve listened to several podcasts by the authors of the Portuguese drug policy on wha their targets were and how they were met (in the case of HIV they were spectacular). It’s not just decriminalisation, there are a lot of different factors at play here. But the basic fact remains I don’t know if any major con to Portuguese drug policy while I do know a large number of pros. Your statement - that decriminalisation leads to drug deaths - does appear thoroughly debunked by PT drug policy.

tfourb 3y ago

From your first source, directly contradicting your interpretation of what it says: "In the first five years after the reforms, drug deaths dropped dramatically. They rose slightly in the following years, before returning to 2005 levels in 2011, with only 10 drug overdose deaths recorded in that year. Since 2011, drug deaths have risen again but remain below 2001 levels (when there were 76 recorded deaths)." The point of de-criminalization is that people that "can't set limits for themselves" are treated as patients, not criminals.

whimsicalism 3y ago
We all know how to read a graph. In fact, I noticed that the deaths graph cuts off earlier in this article than all of the other time-year charts which is indicative of cherrypicking. Looking at their source data [0], looks like deaths are now ~2x those at 2001 levels (~1 death per million). [0]: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2022_en https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-develop...
- tfourb 3y ago
  The source you link says that Portugal had a total of 68 drug-induced deaths in 2019, corresponding to 10 per million. In 2001 there were 76 deaths, corresponding to about 7.3 deaths per million. So overdose deaths rose slightly relative to the total population (they did not double). But for this to be a valid argument about the merits of Portugal's drug policy, you'd have to control for other factors like the types of drugs being used, comorbidities, age, etc. You are accusing a source (which you originally cited to support your own point) of cherrypicking but you are doing a lot of that yourself. What would be helpful would be an actual peer-reviewed study on the effects of the policy (which by the way has evolved and became quite a bit more restrictive after ca. 2015).
  - IceHegel 3y ago
    > drug deaths have increased each year without fail So circling back to my original claim, it's certainly true in the US (see NIH source above). As for Portugal, it appears to be technically wrong because even though drug deaths are now above the 2001 pre legalization level, first there was a period of decline. However, I think my larger point stands even if it's unpopular, which is that legalization is empirically quite a selfish policy that is today masquerading as humanitarian.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      I don't see any "empirical" evidence for your claim. I think it also betrays a fundamental misunderstanding, of the policies that are implemented by most countries. While "legalization" is the popular term for what is happening, professionals tend to talk of "harm reduction," because that is what is what is intended and also better describes what is actually happening in most cases. Most drugs are still illegal in Portugal and will remain so in Germany. I don't think there is a single country where Heroin is legal, Cocaine is legal only in a small number of South/Central American countries and even Cannabis is only legal in about 6 countries (and de facto parts of the US) worldwide. There is no broad movement that advocates a low-regulation distribution of all/most drugs in any country that I'm aware of. What is happening is that more and more countries treat drug use not as a criminal matter, but a public health issue. With the possible exception of Cannabis (where the risks seem so comparable to alcohol that it makes intuitive sense to many people to treat it at least broadly similar), the debate is not about legalization per se, but about how to effectively reduce consumption and the risks associated with it. This is where needle exchange programs, "drug checks," injection spaces, come from: They drastically reduce the harms associated with the use of certain drugs by improving the health outcomes of drug users. Combined with de-criminilization policies, they also provide the basis for health professionals to engage with drug users and start interventions. I really don't see anything "selfish" or "late empire" in that approach, maybe except that it will reduce my payments to the public health system long term.

kranke155 3y ago

You’re ignoring the HIV/AIDS pandemic that was happening amongst drug users in PT. That was dramatically lowered. You also said it led to increased drug deaths. It very clearly has not led to increased drug deaths. It’s stabilised to a similar level as it was 20 years ago. There are multiple factors to a successful drug decriminalisation and harm reduction policy. I’ve listened to several podcasts by the authors of the Portuguese drug policy on wha their targets were and how they were met (in the case of HIV they were spectacular). It’s not just decriminalisation, there are a lot of different factors at play here. But the basic fact remains I don’t know if any major con to Portuguese drug policy while I do know a large number of pros. Your statement - that decriminalisation leads to drug deaths - does appear thoroughly debunked by PT drug policy.