19 ms·

Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

284 points by georgecmu 15y ago

csomar 15y ago
I flagged this post. It's not a problem to discuss politics, but it should have a value. Do the HN community want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Fine, submit an article about that. But submitting such an article will only trigger a flame-war. The content of the article is of the kind that triggers 'oh, ass-hole Israeli', and 'oh, Palestinians uses this to kill innocents'. These are details. Not the actual problem. I'd be happy to see a good discussion about this conflict (although I'm not sure I'd contribute as I have little knowledge about it) certainly, if the community up-voted a related article.
- rdtsc 15y ago
  Alright, let's do this thought experiment. Replace words like Israel and Palestine in the article with countries in Africa. Something like "Water pumps running off of solar power in Kenya, provided by a German start up are being removed by the local government". Would that be acceptable for HN? I am 80% confident, we wouldn't see all this discussion about how the story should have been flagged and or how it is totally unacceptable for HN. So now ask yourselves, why is it different all of the sudden if we put "Palestine" and "Israel" back in the article. Could it be that some here have an irrational and knee-jerk responses to that particular region of the world? If so, maybe that is an interesting discussion. How come a group that fancies itself more rational and straight thinking than others, has such strong biases one way or the other? Why is there so much discussion about this topic. Are people driving an article down and flagging it as "inappropriate politically" not because they are trying to keep HN pure but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way.
  - csomar 15y ago
    Israel is not the West-Bank government. Well, we can argue on that. But that makes your comparison inadequate, at least in my opinion. But I'm here questioning the value of the discussion. If the Kenyan gov. removed the solar plants then there should be some reason, and that's worth discussing. I don't think that any (sane) gov. would remove solar plants providing free energy? The value/(probability to start a war) of the article is close to 0. That's why I flagged the article. It's still my opinion, and I gave my argument. Certainly, I'd respect the HN community choice of what to discuss and how to discuss it.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    > why is it different all of the sudden if we put "Palestine" and "Israel" back in the article. Because it's a traditional flame-bait subject and will never produce useful discussion. Sure, some of the things you mention would be interesting, but this article does not discuss those, and even if it did discuss those the comments would still have very dull repetitive flame-baiting; and they would be the same comments seen for many many years. > but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way. No, it's just a really un-interesting topic for HN. As other people have mentioned there are much better places for this article. 4chan, or reddit, for example.
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  - wastingmytime 15y ago
    > Are people driving an article down and flagging it as "inappropriate politically" not because they are trying to keep HN pure but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way. I was banned for an critical comment on Apple. So I can tell you that their biases is not disguised anymore.
  - chc 15y ago
    A big problem with this kind of topic is that, as you say, people have strong, irrational responses. In other words, it is toxic. It brings out awfully unpleasant people and brings out the worst in otherwise decent people. This is why we are especially unwilling to indulge this particular diversion from topic. It is harmful to HN. I don't fault you for your interest in discussing it, but feel very strongly that it should be elsewhere.
    - rdtsc 15y ago
      Then maybe another level of discussion is how come so many HN readers (and I've said this in my other posts, so apologies for sounding like a broken record) who fancy themselves rational and unbiased all of the sudden exhibit such a strong irrational response. Where does that come from? Is it brainwashing? What is going on? In other words I agree with you that topic might be toxic and that it bring out bad people, but I am interested in why does it bring out "the bad" in good people? Why not just say "meh, don't want to participate" and/or "don't know enough to form an opinion" and move on...
  - sadlyNess 15y ago
    It may not actually be bias but fear, that this may get flamey if discussed in the HN-wrong context(israel v palestine). Coincident: A leading human rights figure got a lot of flak for writing a newspaper article saying that our (kenya's) next president will not be from the same ethnicity as the current. Not a wrong fact just a speculative opinion but because people are touchy when it comes to talking(in public only) about ethnicity since the last bloody elections, people were calling that an incitement and (this is now a media buzzword) 'hate speech'. Question is: can we hn-ly discuss a related topic without getting into the touchy and flamey parts? Far shot but if someone noticed something hn-worthy(like a data pattern or a behaviour pattern) in something as off-HN as say lolcats, will it be impossible to talk about it?
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  - joeytm 15y ago
    I was banned for an critical comment on Apple. So I can tell you that their biases is not disguised anymore. And now I have just been banned for this comment despite 4 upvotes... And I can see that user "babbling" has been banned for this comment : "Except that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is interesting to a lot of people and Hacker News tends to have more civilized discussions than some other places" This doesn't feel right.
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- randomobserver 15y ago
  Yes, let's just bury anything YOU disagree with. You're complaining about someone posting something and then say that they should post the very thing you accuse them of. Do you think we should just ignore the human rights abuses that Israel is committing against the Arabs?
tovmeod 15y ago
off toppic. basically people installed solar panels, which require proper authorization, which they didn't have, so authorities are going to dismantle it. how this is news? just because it is in israel? so what? couldn't care less, this would happen in any part of the world, whatever. then article goes on talking about politics. why this was even posted on hacker news?
- philco 15y ago
  So don't vote it up! I find it funny to read this comment while the number 1 post on HN is about a magician and his tricks...hehe. I really enjoyed both articles though. Just vote for what you like and don't click on things you don't care about.
  - Vivtek 15y ago
    Cognitive bias is arguably more germane to HN than international energy politics.
    - philco 15y ago
      My point is that voting determines what's relevant. Voting has put this on the front page. It's not about what you think, or whether you would argue that cognitive bias "is arguably more germane to HN", it has to do with what HN readers think is valuable and vote for.
      - lotharbot 15y ago
        the HN guidelines determine what should be submitted. The flag option exists in part because some HN readers submit or upvote stories that the guidelines say don't belong here.
        philco 15y ago
        I stand corrected!
    - 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
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- EScott11 15y ago
  Good point, but you can also probably get the permits far more easily than a Palestinian living in the West Bank who doesn't speak the language of the government that he does not recognize.
  - nivertech 15y ago
    Civil Administration do speak and communicate important documents in Arabic. Likewise nomad tribes living there do understand Hebrew. Unrelated, but their particular dialect (Rural Palestinian Arabic) still have some Hebrew substratum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic#Influence_of_other_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic#Influence_of...
- donaldc 15y ago
  The difference is that you'd have a reasonable chance of being able to get authorization.
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  - davidkatz 15y ago
    This just sounds wrong to me. The territories under question are not occupied, but disputed. Each side has legitimate claims to them, and their status can only be resolved through negotiations, which is what the sides themselves agreed to in the Oslo Accords [1]. Furthermore, by what is the claim that Israel smashes every attempt of Palestinian economic development supported? Over a decade, Israel ceded territory and control to the Palestinian government, aided in tax collection, and continues to supply electricity to the Gaza strip, a hostile territory from which missiles are routinely fired into Israeli population centers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
grannyg00se 15y ago
"But last month, Israel's Civil Administration - a branch of the military dealing with Palestinian civilians..." That sounds like the problem right there.
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- zzzzxxxx 15y ago
  I love how you managed to find the root cause and the implied solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, all while sipping your morning coffee.
drats 15y ago
This is totally irrelevant to HN and is one of the issues on the Internet most likely to start a flame war. Flagged. georgecmu you appear to have been around HN a good while, which surprises me as it's more than long enough to know this is totally inappropriate. Go to reddit.com/r/worldnews or one of the other relevant subreddits if you want to discuss this issue.
- babbling 15y ago
  Except that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is interesting to a lot of people and Hacker News tends to have more civilized discussions than some other places
- rdtsc 15y ago
  It deals with renewable energy ( solar panels ) and a technology that can potentially revolutionize life in areas that are still stuck with primitive farming technologies. There is even a start-up opportunity there or a non-for-profit start-up opportunity. So I don't think the adjective totally completely applies.
  - Nate75Sanders 15y ago
    doesn't change what you're saying, but "totally" is an adverb
- Estragon 15y ago
  It surprises me that people are complaining this is irrelevant to HN. It fits well with the PG/HN narrative of technology decentralizing political power -- Israel is suppressing this technology because it doesn't want to give up its control of the electricity supply.
  - ubershmekel 15y ago
    This is a political piece on a political issue. Solar/wind energy isn't new or hacker newsy more than building a house is. I'd love to further express my opinion on the subject, this just isn't the place for it. No matter how hard you spin it.
hastur 15y ago
Just another data point confirming a well known pattern: The Israeli government has no common sense. They behave like fanatics and should be treated as such.
- JS_startup 15y ago
  Much like you should
zunky 15y ago
Since when did hacker news became a source for politics? That is what the NY Times, Fox News,and CNN are for. Please don't let HN become one of those sites that entices hatred towards another country or a certain group of people. This post should be deleted as it has nothing to do with HN.
- nailer 15y ago
  pg has steadfastly refused to limit topic discussion beyond the wide ranging and vague 'anything that may be on interest to hackers'.
  - lotharbot 15y ago
    In the guidelines [0], immediately after the aforementioned vague comment, pg gives some specific restrictions: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." [0] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - meric 15y ago
      "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." I don't think they'd cover this on TV news.
      - ak39 15y ago
        :)
  - JS_startup 15y ago
    Not sure why 'hackers' would care about Israel-Palestine drama
    - rdtsc 15y ago
      They might not but they might care about Solar panels. That is probably why it was submitted.
evertonfuller 15y ago
Off topic.
orbitingpluto 15y ago
If you want to take an entrepreneurial lesson from this: 1) Get your permits. Dot your Is, cross your Ts if you can. If you can't and you think you are in the right, you should probably do it anyway. 2) If someone infinitely more powerful than you wants you to fail, things will not be easy for you. 3) Politics, business and technology mix whether you want them to or not. 4) If you are a powerful entity bullying your competition, there will be bad PR. There may be consequences in the future. You've been warned and it may be in your long-term interests to behave yourself. Interestingly enough as I read the above I see a strong pro-Palestinian bent. But the 3 Jews sitting next to me right now would see me as a more middle-of-the-road-why-can't-we-all-get-along sort.
- azernik 15y ago
  Props for taking a probably-off-topic post and bringing it on-topic.
- mark_l_watson 15y ago
  After years on HN, I am going to post my first negative response to someone's comment, yours! The Israeli government's actions in this and many other acts are completely immoral. Your 1) point may have some logical validity in general, but for the good of the Israeli and Palestinian people, the whole world needs to get behind slamming down on the actions of the Israeli government, which also I believe also will hurt their own people in the long run.
  - nyellin 15y ago
    Really? The world must unite to fight the possibly unethical enforcement of a sensible law in a country which has (for the most part, but with some exceptions outside of its jurisdiction) an excellent court system that has overturned similar decisions in the past? This is a controversial issue, which doesn't belong on HN, partly because people's strong opinions on Israel are often disproportionate to their overall interest in human rights in the middle east. People in this thread have a special self-righteous stick up their ass for Israel, but can't name the neighboring countries which executed or imprisoned gays, woman rights activists, and journalists or even tweeters last year.
ucee054 15y ago
This post is no less informative and no more political than, for example, this post on ACTA: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620579 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620579 In my understanding it is in fact both acceptable under the guidelines and especially relevant to hackers and I will explain my reasoning on each point in order. The post is acceptable under the guidelines because it is factual reporting about Palestine and Israel, which is important information that I do not believe would normally get reported in the US media. I have seen airplay of criticism (demonization even), mostly of the Palestinians but occasionally of the Israeli settlers, but not the facts. I believe that the reason the facts about Palestine are suppressed is because of organized "Hasbara" (public relations) efforts by Israel's supporters in the USA. (Example link: http://www.hasbara.com/ http://www.hasbara.com/) (I believe the factual record is one sidedly unflattering to Israel, so I believe that to be the Israeli motive.) Otherwise I can't explain why there hasn't been more uproar about Israel's killing of US servicemen (Link http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,43090.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/ch...) Israel's attempted sale of US military secrets to China (Links: http://www.bigeye.com/041600.htm http://www.bigeye.com/041600.htm http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandals.php http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandal...) or use of Israeli counterterrorism units against the "Occupy" movement (Link: http://www.alternet.org/story/153307/from_occupation_to_%E2%80%9Coccupy%E2%80%9D%3A_the_israelification_of_american_domestic_security/ http://www.alternet.org/story/153307/from_occupation_to_%E2%...) This is important information because people who knew the facts might choose to act differently, for example in terms of career choice or investment choice. For example, given the facts that I know about how Israel treats innocent Palestinian civilians, I have an ethical problem with Israel and do not intend to work for Israel, to buy Israeli products, to do business with Israel, to buy stock in companies that make investments in Israel, or otherwise enrich Israel in any way that I can avoid, directly or indirectly. I am not a customer of Starbucks or of Marks and Spencer for this reason. This issue is particularly pertinent to hackers because startup funding, research and development and technology transfer depend greatly on the military industrial complex - which is particularly developed in Israel and very strongly connected to the US military industrial complex. For example, if one does graduate research in networking or communications systems at Cornell, one's algorithms and work just might end up being used inside Israeli weapons used against civilians. Links: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/israeli-university-bids-w-cornell-and-350-million-to-set-up-on-roosevelt-island-in-ny.html http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/israeli-university-bids-w-corn... http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20120102 http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20120102 It would be a shame if Hacker News guidelines become warped and misapplied as censorship tools for Hasbara and I am alarmed to see standard Hasbara talking points - such as 'The territories are "Disputed" not "Occupied"' - used to justify such censorship even on this page.
rooshdi 15y ago
Why are most of the top comments up in arms about this article and not the magic secrets of Teller one? If you're going to shout "irrelevant", at least be consistent. I think this speaks volumes of the biases inherent in some of the commenters here. You may not believe it, but there are some individuals here who would like to discuss the technological, entrepreneurial, and maybe even human right implications of the events in this article. If you don't like it, ignore it. The fact that the top comments suggest we shouldn't even begin discussing the content of this article is very reflective of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict itself...no one wants to empathize with the "other side". On the contrary, we should encourage discussion and just down vote whichever comments we deem unproductive and upvote the ones, such as orbitingpluto's, which provide great insight.
- lotharbot 15y ago
  > "Why are most of the top comments up in arms about this article and not the magic secrets of Teller one?" From the guidelines[0]: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." [0] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- rnrlrn 15y ago
  "no one wants to empathize with the "other side"." not true. Israel has active left wing and various peace movements. they just don't get much attention outside of Israel. I realize people don't like to hear this but Israel is a democracy with a wide range of opinions and representation of all society including Arabs in the government. please read up
dminor14 15y ago
Article is political not factual. Contains numerous errors designed for political propaganda purposes, shouldn't be on a technical website.
- danmaz74 15y ago
  If there are factual errors, point them out. I'd like to read about them. But saying this generalically doesn't help.
rnrlrn 15y ago
off topic and annoying. anti-Israel agendas on hnews. the article is 2% about renewable energy and 98% Israel bashing, typically ignoring the Israeli point of view. shame
- TeeWEE 15y ago
  If somebody would write an article in nazi germany about how the jews dont get the food and the electricity they wanted than that would be an anti-nazi article. however that doesnt mean is annoying or factual wrong.
  - rnrlrn 15y ago
    it also wouldn't belong on a tech site. what's annoying is that non tech articles get posted just for furthering Israel hatred and only a few call it out. then Israelis feel besieged and everybody wonders why. your reference to ww2 is fitting though not for the reason you think, but because like then, Jews were picked out for special treatment, except today we're called Zionists, so as to be politically correct
    - TeeWEE 15y ago
      Zionists think they are the chosen ones right? Isnt that similar to some other idealogies? Actually I am not pro palestina or anti isreal. I just think that religion in its generality does not promote peac and understanding. A world without religionbwould be a better place.
      - coolestuk 15y ago
        Zionism was a secular movement. I'm not a jew, and I'm an atheist. I believe in religion being removed from the public sphere. And I'm also a zionist.
TeeWEE 15y ago
I was born in Amsterdam and didnt understand this conflict, after seeing numerous documentaries i have an understanding what is going on. Basically zionists believe they are the chosen ones and that all other are inferiour. They believe the land is destined to them. Whatever the UN says. If you think about it this is a similar ideology than the naxis. And in fact the same methods are used. I recommend everybody to watch the documentaryovie '5 broken cameras' http://newsterrorist.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/picture-comparison-between-nazi-treatment-of-jews-and-israeli-treatment-of-palestinians/ http://newsterrorist.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/picture-compar...
- TeeWEE 15y ago
  Sorry for flaming. But please watch the documentary I mentioned.
- JVirissimo 15y ago
  You think you understand the conflict because...you watched a documentary on it? This is an incredibly complex situation. If you think you understand it without even reading the standard literature, then you are probably fooling yourself.
- coolestuk 15y ago
  You are wrong on so many levels (and I'm not a jew). When zionism was created in the late 19th century, most jews in the world had NO interest in moving to Palestine or being zionists. Ask yourself the question: why if they believe that the land that is now Israel was theirs on the basis of religion, why were so many jews uninterested in pursuing this? Zionism was a reaction to the hundreds of years of anti-semitism jews had endure. Most jews rejected zionism (which was a nationalist movement not a religious movement). Most jews wanted to stay where they were and wanted to be part of the country in which they lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism The state of Israel arose from two factors. 1. The zionist movement which provided a narrative framework (historical, geographical, political, religious). 2. 70 years later, the attempt by the Nazis (and muslims like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) to wipe out jews. The Nazis wasnted the jews out of europe; fanatical muslims like the Mufti wanted them out of the middle east. (Some fanatical Nazis and some fanatical muslims wanted the jews wiped out. Some fanatical muslims still want the jews wiped out in toto). If you haven't read the Life of Mohammed (the first and most orthodox interpretation of Mohammed's life) you can read a condensed version here. http://www.scribd.com/doc/27156626/The-Earliest-Biography-of-Muhammad-By-Ibn-Ishaq http://www.scribd.com/doc/27156626/The-Earliest-Biography-of... You will see that already in the 7th century, Mohammed was exterminating jews. The markings that the Nazis used for jews, originated in muslim countries in the middle ages, where jews (and christians) were made to wear special symbols to make them aware of their sub-human status in the eyes of muslims (dhimmitude). Later, christians in Spain (having pushed out the invading armies of islam after several hundred years of violent domination) also made jews wear stars, and that was adopted again by the Nazis. But the idea originated with the muslim concept of dhimmitude. After what the Nazis did to jews in Europe, no wonder many jews embraced the idea of Israel as a safe(r) place for them to live (although millions of jews who went to Israel were actually kicked out of muslim north africa and Iraq, and all their wealth confiscated). If jews were going to face potential extermination in the future, then it made sense to defend themselves in their historical homeland (go on the Tunnel Tour in Jerusalem, and see the historical evidence for their great civilisation before the time of Herod). Since you are Dutch, what do you make of the best film ever made by Dutch director Paul Verhoeven? I'm talking about Black Book, the film most Dutch people will not watch, because it shows the extent of the collaboration between Dutch people and the Nazis in the persecution of Dutch jews. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389557/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389557/ And since the media goes on and on about "the Palestinian refugees", I suggest you read this, and see how the UN manages to manufacture a refugee crisis unlike no other in history: http://www.danielpipes.org/10695/unrwa-palestine-refugees http://www.danielpipes.org/10695/unrwa-palestine-refugees It seems to me that jews have suffered so much prejudice and hostility over the centuries, they have adopted far thicker skins than the rest of us. And I think that many of us non-jews are too ready to channel the history of jew-hatred from our the past of our cultures. And sadly, I think I was one of those people.
electic 15y ago
Israel = Jerks
joska 15y ago
Its just not fair that weak terrorist who fail to get their way, don't have solar power!
ak39 15y ago
Good post. This is definitely on point and relevant to HN visitors. This, for at least two reasons: 1. You never innovate in a vacuum: Whether it's genetically modified crops, cancer treatment, AI, encryption or energy solutions, all innovation is subsumed under the greater agenda of existing power and political structures. If you innovate for people to use your innovation, you are forced to deal with the attendant moral implications. This story clearly demonstrates this scenario. Whether it's Israel as the morally shadowy character is not relevant. 2. Innovation in the the energy space will throw you into the political field so violently you will regret not sticking to developing your new "To-Do List" software like every other coward out there :) : I feel strongly about the second point: energy related innovations and their implementations to better the lives of people should be protected much like water & food resources are (or ought to be). Up-vote for sure.
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Rastafarian 15y ago
I don't understand Israel politics at all. Why not act straight and just deport all Arabs from inside their current borders? There are so many Muslim states around that should (willingly or not) give the refugees a shelter. It's not like that will make people with anti-Israel feelings hate them more than destroying perfectly good solar panels when a global energy crisis is quite likely.

284 points by georgecmu 15y ago

I flagged this post. It's not a problem to discuss politics, but it should have a value. Do the HN community want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Fine, submit an article about that. But submitting such an article will only trigger a flame-war. The content of the article is of the kind that triggers 'oh, ass-hole Israeli', and 'oh, Palestinians uses this to kill innocents'. These are details. Not the actual problem. I'd be happy to see a good discussion about this conflict (although I'm not sure I'd contribute as I have little knowledge about it) certainly, if the community up-voted a related article.

rdtsc 15y ago
Alright, let's do this thought experiment. Replace words like Israel and Palestine in the article with countries in Africa. Something like "Water pumps running off of solar power in Kenya, provided by a German start up are being removed by the local government". Would that be acceptable for HN? I am 80% confident, we wouldn't see all this discussion about how the story should have been flagged and or how it is totally unacceptable for HN. So now ask yourselves, why is it different all of the sudden if we put "Palestine" and "Israel" back in the article. Could it be that some here have an irrational and knee-jerk responses to that particular region of the world? If so, maybe that is an interesting discussion. How come a group that fancies itself more rational and straight thinking than others, has such strong biases one way or the other? Why is there so much discussion about this topic. Are people driving an article down and flagging it as "inappropriate politically" not because they are trying to keep HN pure but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way.
- csomar 15y ago
  Israel is not the West-Bank government. Well, we can argue on that. But that makes your comparison inadequate, at least in my opinion. But I'm here questioning the value of the discussion. If the Kenyan gov. removed the solar plants then there should be some reason, and that's worth discussing. I don't think that any (sane) gov. would remove solar plants providing free energy? The value/(probability to start a war) of the article is close to 0. That's why I flagged the article. It's still my opinion, and I gave my argument. Certainly, I'd respect the HN community choice of what to discuss and how to discuss it.
- DanBC 15y ago
  > why is it different all of the sudden if we put "Palestine" and "Israel" back in the article. Because it's a traditional flame-bait subject and will never produce useful discussion. Sure, some of the things you mention would be interesting, but this article does not discuss those, and even if it did discuss those the comments would still have very dull repetitive flame-baiting; and they would be the same comments seen for many many years. > but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way. No, it's just a really un-interesting topic for HN. As other people have mentioned there are much better places for this article. 4chan, or reddit, for example.
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- wastingmytime 15y ago
  > Are people driving an article down and flagging it as "inappropriate politically" not because they are trying to keep HN pure but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way. I was banned for an critical comment on Apple. So I can tell you that their biases is not disguised anymore.
- chc 15y ago
  A big problem with this kind of topic is that, as you say, people have strong, irrational responses. In other words, it is toxic. It brings out awfully unpleasant people and brings out the worst in otherwise decent people. This is why we are especially unwilling to indulge this particular diversion from topic. It is harmful to HN. I don't fault you for your interest in discussing it, but feel very strongly that it should be elsewhere.
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    Then maybe another level of discussion is how come so many HN readers (and I've said this in my other posts, so apologies for sounding like a broken record) who fancy themselves rational and unbiased all of the sudden exhibit such a strong irrational response. Where does that come from? Is it brainwashing? What is going on? In other words I agree with you that topic might be toxic and that it bring out bad people, but I am interested in why does it bring out "the bad" in good people? Why not just say "meh, don't want to participate" and/or "don't know enough to form an opinion" and move on...
- sadlyNess 15y ago
  It may not actually be bias but fear, that this may get flamey if discussed in the HN-wrong context(israel v palestine). Coincident: A leading human rights figure got a lot of flak for writing a newspaper article saying that our (kenya's) next president will not be from the same ethnicity as the current. Not a wrong fact just a speculative opinion but because people are touchy when it comes to talking(in public only) about ethnicity since the last bloody elections, people were calling that an incitement and (this is now a media buzzword) 'hate speech'. Question is: can we hn-ly discuss a related topic without getting into the touchy and flamey parts? Far shot but if someone noticed something hn-worthy(like a data pattern or a behaviour pattern) in something as off-HN as say lolcats, will it be impossible to talk about it?
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- joeytm 15y ago
  I was banned for an critical comment on Apple. So I can tell you that their biases is not disguised anymore. And now I have just been banned for this comment despite 4 upvotes... And I can see that user "babbling" has been banned for this comment : "Except that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is interesting to a lot of people and Hacker News tends to have more civilized discussions than some other places" This doesn't feel right.
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randomobserver 15y ago
Yes, let's just bury anything YOU disagree with. You're complaining about someone posting something and then say that they should post the very thing you accuse them of. Do you think we should just ignore the human rights abuses that Israel is committing against the Arabs?

tovmeod 15y ago

off toppic. basically people installed solar panels, which require proper authorization, which they didn't have, so authorities are going to dismantle it. how this is news? just because it is in israel? so what? couldn't care less, this would happen in any part of the world, whatever. then article goes on talking about politics. why this was even posted on hacker news?

philco 15y ago
So don't vote it up! I find it funny to read this comment while the number 1 post on HN is about a magician and his tricks...hehe. I really enjoyed both articles though. Just vote for what you like and don't click on things you don't care about.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  Cognitive bias is arguably more germane to HN than international energy politics.
  - philco 15y ago
    My point is that voting determines what's relevant. Voting has put this on the front page. It's not about what you think, or whether you would argue that cognitive bias "is arguably more germane to HN", it has to do with what HN readers think is valuable and vote for.
    - lotharbot 15y ago
      the HN guidelines determine what should be submitted. The flag option exists in part because some HN readers submit or upvote stories that the guidelines say don't belong here.
      - philco 15y ago
        I stand corrected!
  - 15y ago

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EScott11 15y ago
Good point, but you can also probably get the permits far more easily than a Palestinian living in the West Bank who doesn't speak the language of the government that he does not recognize.
- nivertech 15y ago
  Civil Administration do speak and communicate important documents in Arabic. Likewise nomad tribes living there do understand Hebrew. Unrelated, but their particular dialect (Rural Palestinian Arabic) still have some Hebrew substratum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic#Influence_of_other_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic#Influence_of...
donaldc 15y ago
The difference is that you'd have a reasonable chance of being able to get authorization.
deleted 15y ago
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- davidkatz 15y ago
  This just sounds wrong to me. The territories under question are not occupied, but disputed. Each side has legitimate claims to them, and their status can only be resolved through negotiations, which is what the sides themselves agreed to in the Oslo Accords [1]. Furthermore, by what is the claim that Israel smashes every attempt of Palestinian economic development supported? Over a decade, Israel ceded territory and control to the Palestinian government, aided in tax collection, and continues to supply electricity to the Gaza strip, a hostile territory from which missiles are routinely fired into Israeli population centers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

grannyg00se 15y ago

"But last month, Israel's Civil Administration - a branch of the military dealing with Palestinian civilians..." That sounds like the problem right there.

deleted 15y ago
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zzzzxxxx 15y ago
I love how you managed to find the root cause and the implied solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, all while sipping your morning coffee.

drats 15y ago

This is totally irrelevant to HN and is one of the issues on the Internet most likely to start a flame war. Flagged. georgecmu you appear to have been around HN a good while, which surprises me as it's more than long enough to know this is totally inappropriate. Go to reddit.com/r/worldnews or one of the other relevant subreddits if you want to discuss this issue.

babbling 15y ago
Except that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is interesting to a lot of people and Hacker News tends to have more civilized discussions than some other places
rdtsc 15y ago
It deals with renewable energy ( solar panels ) and a technology that can potentially revolutionize life in areas that are still stuck with primitive farming technologies. There is even a start-up opportunity there or a non-for-profit start-up opportunity. So I don't think the adjective totally completely applies.
- Nate75Sanders 15y ago
  doesn't change what you're saying, but "totally" is an adverb
Estragon 15y ago
It surprises me that people are complaining this is irrelevant to HN. It fits well with the PG/HN narrative of technology decentralizing political power -- Israel is suppressing this technology because it doesn't want to give up its control of the electricity supply.
- ubershmekel 15y ago
  This is a political piece on a political issue. Solar/wind energy isn't new or hacker newsy more than building a house is. I'd love to further express my opinion on the subject, this just isn't the place for it. No matter how hard you spin it.

hastur 15y ago

Just another data point confirming a well known pattern: The Israeli government has no common sense. They behave like fanatics and should be treated as such.

JS_startup 15y ago
Much like you should

zunky 15y ago

Since when did hacker news became a source for politics? That is what the NY Times, Fox News,and CNN are for. Please don't let HN become one of those sites that entices hatred towards another country or a certain group of people. This post should be deleted as it has nothing to do with HN.

nailer 15y ago
pg has steadfastly refused to limit topic discussion beyond the wide ranging and vague 'anything that may be on interest to hackers'.
- lotharbot 15y ago
  In the guidelines [0], immediately after the aforementioned vague comment, pg gives some specific restrictions: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." [0] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - meric 15y ago
    "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." I don't think they'd cover this on TV news.
    - ak39 15y ago
      :)
- JS_startup 15y ago
  Not sure why 'hackers' would care about Israel-Palestine drama
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    They might not but they might care about Solar panels. That is probably why it was submitted.

evertonfuller 15y ago

Off topic.

orbitingpluto 15y ago

If you want to take an entrepreneurial lesson from this: 1) Get your permits. Dot your Is, cross your Ts if you can. If you can't and you think you are in the right, you should probably do it anyway. 2) If someone infinitely more powerful than you wants you to fail, things will not be easy for you. 3) Politics, business and technology mix whether you want them to or not. 4) If you are a powerful entity bullying your competition, there will be bad PR. There may be consequences in the future. You've been warned and it may be in your long-term interests to behave yourself. Interestingly enough as I read the above I see a strong pro-Palestinian bent. But the 3 Jews sitting next to me right now would see me as a more middle-of-the-road-why-can't-we-all-get-along sort.

azernik 15y ago
Props for taking a probably-off-topic post and bringing it on-topic.
mark_l_watson 15y ago
After years on HN, I am going to post my first negative response to someone's comment, yours! The Israeli government's actions in this and many other acts are completely immoral. Your 1) point may have some logical validity in general, but for the good of the Israeli and Palestinian people, the whole world needs to get behind slamming down on the actions of the Israeli government, which also I believe also will hurt their own people in the long run.
- nyellin 15y ago
  Really? The world must unite to fight the possibly unethical enforcement of a sensible law in a country which has (for the most part, but with some exceptions outside of its jurisdiction) an excellent court system that has overturned similar decisions in the past? This is a controversial issue, which doesn't belong on HN, partly because people's strong opinions on Israel are often disproportionate to their overall interest in human rights in the middle east. People in this thread have a special self-righteous stick up their ass for Israel, but can't name the neighboring countries which executed or imprisoned gays, woman rights activists, and journalists or even tweeters last year.

ucee054 15y ago

This post is no less informative and no more political than, for example, this post on ACTA: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620579 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620579 In my understanding it is in fact both acceptable under the guidelines and especially relevant to hackers and I will explain my reasoning on each point in order. The post is acceptable under the guidelines because it is factual reporting about Palestine and Israel, which is important information that I do not believe would normally get reported in the US media. I have seen airplay of criticism (demonization even), mostly of the Palestinians but occasionally of the Israeli settlers, but not the facts. I believe that the reason the facts about Palestine are suppressed is because of organized "Hasbara" (public relations) efforts by Israel's supporters in the USA. (Example link: http://www.hasbara.com/ http://www.hasbara.com/) (I believe the factual record is one sidedly unflattering to Israel, so I believe that to be the Israeli motive.) Otherwise I can't explain why there hasn't been more uproar about Israel's killing of US servicemen (Link http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,43090.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/ch...) Israel's attempted sale of US military secrets to China (Links: http://www.bigeye.com/041600.htm http://www.bigeye.com/041600.htm http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandals.php http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandal...) or use of Israeli counterterrorism units against the "Occupy" movement (Link: http://www.alternet.org/story/153307/from_occupation_to_%E2%80%9Coccupy%E2%80%9D%3A_the_israelification_of_american_domestic_security/ http://www.alternet.org/story/153307/from_occupation_to_%E2%...) This is important information because people who knew the facts might choose to act differently, for example in terms of career choice or investment choice. For example, given the facts that I know about how Israel treats innocent Palestinian civilians, I have an ethical problem with Israel and do not intend to work for Israel, to buy Israeli products, to do business with Israel, to buy stock in companies that make investments in Israel, or otherwise enrich Israel in any way that I can avoid, directly or indirectly. I am not a customer of Starbucks or of Marks and Spencer for this reason. This issue is particularly pertinent to hackers because startup funding, research and development and technology transfer depend greatly on the military industrial complex - which is particularly developed in Israel and very strongly connected to the US military industrial complex. For example, if one does graduate research in networking or communications systems at Cornell, one's algorithms and work just might end up being used inside Israeli weapons used against civilians. Links: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/israeli-university-bids-w-cornell-and-350-million-to-set-up-on-roosevelt-island-in-ny.html http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/israeli-university-bids-w-corn... http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20120102 http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20120102 It would be a shame if Hacker News guidelines become warped and misapplied as censorship tools for Hasbara and I am alarmed to see standard Hasbara talking points - such as 'The territories are "Disputed" not "Occupied"' - used to justify such censorship even on this page.

rooshdi 15y ago

Why are most of the top comments up in arms about this article and not the magic secrets of Teller one? If you're going to shout "irrelevant", at least be consistent. I think this speaks volumes of the biases inherent in some of the commenters here. You may not believe it, but there are some individuals here who would like to discuss the technological, entrepreneurial, and maybe even human right implications of the events in this article. If you don't like it, ignore it. The fact that the top comments suggest we shouldn't even begin discussing the content of this article is very reflective of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict itself...no one wants to empathize with the "other side". On the contrary, we should encourage discussion and just down vote whichever comments we deem unproductive and upvote the ones, such as orbitingpluto's, which provide great insight.

lotharbot 15y ago
> "Why are most of the top comments up in arms about this article and not the magic secrets of Teller one?" From the guidelines[0]: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." [0] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rnrlrn 15y ago
"no one wants to empathize with the "other side"." not true. Israel has active left wing and various peace movements. they just don't get much attention outside of Israel. I realize people don't like to hear this but Israel is a democracy with a wide range of opinions and representation of all society including Arabs in the government. please read up

dminor14 15y ago

Article is political not factual. Contains numerous errors designed for political propaganda purposes, shouldn't be on a technical website.

danmaz74 15y ago
If there are factual errors, point them out. I'd like to read about them. But saying this generalically doesn't help.

rnrlrn 15y ago

off topic and annoying. anti-Israel agendas on hnews. the article is 2% about renewable energy and 98% Israel bashing, typically ignoring the Israeli point of view. shame

TeeWEE 15y ago
If somebody would write an article in nazi germany about how the jews dont get the food and the electricity they wanted than that would be an anti-nazi article. however that doesnt mean is annoying or factual wrong.
- rnrlrn 15y ago
  it also wouldn't belong on a tech site. what's annoying is that non tech articles get posted just for furthering Israel hatred and only a few call it out. then Israelis feel besieged and everybody wonders why. your reference to ww2 is fitting though not for the reason you think, but because like then, Jews were picked out for special treatment, except today we're called Zionists, so as to be politically correct
  - TeeWEE 15y ago
    Zionists think they are the chosen ones right? Isnt that similar to some other idealogies? Actually I am not pro palestina or anti isreal. I just think that religion in its generality does not promote peac and understanding. A world without religionbwould be a better place.
    - coolestuk 15y ago
      Zionism was a secular movement. I'm not a jew, and I'm an atheist. I believe in religion being removed from the public sphere. And I'm also a zionist.

TeeWEE 15y ago

I was born in Amsterdam and didnt understand this conflict, after seeing numerous documentaries i have an understanding what is going on. Basically zionists believe they are the chosen ones and that all other are inferiour. They believe the land is destined to them. Whatever the UN says. If you think about it this is a similar ideology than the naxis. And in fact the same methods are used. I recommend everybody to watch the documentaryovie '5 broken cameras' http://newsterrorist.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/picture-comparison-between-nazi-treatment-of-jews-and-israeli-treatment-of-palestinians/ http://newsterrorist.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/picture-compar...

TeeWEE 15y ago
Sorry for flaming. But please watch the documentary I mentioned.
JVirissimo 15y ago
You think you understand the conflict because...you watched a documentary on it? This is an incredibly complex situation. If you think you understand it without even reading the standard literature, then you are probably fooling yourself.
coolestuk 15y ago
You are wrong on so many levels (and I'm not a jew). When zionism was created in the late 19th century, most jews in the world had NO interest in moving to Palestine or being zionists. Ask yourself the question: why if they believe that the land that is now Israel was theirs on the basis of religion, why were so many jews uninterested in pursuing this? Zionism was a reaction to the hundreds of years of anti-semitism jews had endure. Most jews rejected zionism (which was a nationalist movement not a religious movement). Most jews wanted to stay where they were and wanted to be part of the country in which they lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism The state of Israel arose from two factors. 1. The zionist movement which provided a narrative framework (historical, geographical, political, religious). 2. 70 years later, the attempt by the Nazis (and muslims like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) to wipe out jews. The Nazis wasnted the jews out of europe; fanatical muslims like the Mufti wanted them out of the middle east. (Some fanatical Nazis and some fanatical muslims wanted the jews wiped out. Some fanatical muslims still want the jews wiped out in toto). If you haven't read the Life of Mohammed (the first and most orthodox interpretation of Mohammed's life) you can read a condensed version here. http://www.scribd.com/doc/27156626/The-Earliest-Biography-of-Muhammad-By-Ibn-Ishaq http://www.scribd.com/doc/27156626/The-Earliest-Biography-of... You will see that already in the 7th century, Mohammed was exterminating jews. The markings that the Nazis used for jews, originated in muslim countries in the middle ages, where jews (and christians) were made to wear special symbols to make them aware of their sub-human status in the eyes of muslims (dhimmitude). Later, christians in Spain (having pushed out the invading armies of islam after several hundred years of violent domination) also made jews wear stars, and that was adopted again by the Nazis. But the idea originated with the muslim concept of dhimmitude. After what the Nazis did to jews in Europe, no wonder many jews embraced the idea of Israel as a safe(r) place for them to live (although millions of jews who went to Israel were actually kicked out of muslim north africa and Iraq, and all their wealth confiscated). If jews were going to face potential extermination in the future, then it made sense to defend themselves in their historical homeland (go on the Tunnel Tour in Jerusalem, and see the historical evidence for their great civilisation before the time of Herod). Since you are Dutch, what do you make of the best film ever made by Dutch director Paul Verhoeven? I'm talking about Black Book, the film most Dutch people will not watch, because it shows the extent of the collaboration between Dutch people and the Nazis in the persecution of Dutch jews. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389557/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389557/ And since the media goes on and on about "the Palestinian refugees", I suggest you read this, and see how the UN manages to manufacture a refugee crisis unlike no other in history: http://www.danielpipes.org/10695/unrwa-palestine-refugees http://www.danielpipes.org/10695/unrwa-palestine-refugees It seems to me that jews have suffered so much prejudice and hostility over the centuries, they have adopted far thicker skins than the rest of us. And I think that many of us non-jews are too ready to channel the history of jew-hatred from our the past of our cultures. And sadly, I think I was one of those people.

electic 15y ago

Israel = Jerks

joska 15y ago

Its just not fair that weak terrorist who fail to get their way, don't have solar power!

ak39 15y ago

Good post. This is definitely on point and relevant to HN visitors. This, for at least two reasons: 1. You never innovate in a vacuum: Whether it's genetically modified crops, cancer treatment, AI, encryption or energy solutions, all innovation is subsumed under the greater agenda of existing power and political structures. If you innovate for people to use your innovation, you are forced to deal with the attendant moral implications. This story clearly demonstrates this scenario. Whether it's Israel as the morally shadowy character is not relevant. 2. Innovation in the the energy space will throw you into the political field so violently you will regret not sticking to developing your new "To-Do List" software like every other coward out there :) : I feel strongly about the second point: energy related innovations and their implementations to better the lives of people should be protected much like water & food resources are (or ought to be). Up-vote for sure.

deleted 15y ago

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Rastafarian 15y ago

I don't understand Israel politics at all. Why not act straight and just deport all Arabs from inside their current borders? There are so many Muslim states around that should (willingly or not) give the refugees a shelter. It's not like that will make people with anti-Israel feelings hate them more than destroying perfectly good solar panels when a global energy crisis is quite likely.