6 ms·

So basically you're saying that people presenting infantile traits end up in... Immature ideologies. It has nothing to do with left or right, you yourself is s

by piva00 3y ago

So basically you're saying that people presenting infantile traits end up in... Immature ideologies. It has nothing to do with left or right, you yourself is saying the left-right dimension is antiquated but still using the term to try to pull your argument. It has to do with people incapable of thinking in higher-level orders, to understand nuance; to understand systems and how they relate to oneself, others and societies; to understand more mature views of the world, and to be able to parse through those views. They are present in any part of the political spectrum but the more immature sides attract more immature people. You could just have avoided the whole political jab, it'd be a more interesting conversation.

4gotunameagain 3y ago
The jab was more targeted because one of these extremes is much more represented than the other, currently. It has become popular to be far left; it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  > it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades How did Trump and MAGA become successful if they're not popular?
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago
    Do you think that the voters of Trump are far right? Some of them are, sure. The success of Trump was due to the failure of the Democrats, not the popularity of far right.
    - piva00 3y ago
      The rhetoric of the far-right definitely became more commonplace, it's not necessarily that the majority Trump's voters are far-right but he has definitely opened a floodgate to empower the far-right not only in the USA but in other countries as well. If you hang out with Nazis, if you brush up with Nazis, you are very likely to become a Nazi yourself because no one that rejects Nazis would put themselves into that position... And I think it's pretty clear that Trump brushed shoulders with Nazis.
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      Yes
- piva00 3y ago
  > it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades. I think we are living in very different realities then. I had never seen in my life vocal and open support for white supremacism as it's been since around 2015, I'm not in or from the USA, mind you. I also had never seen popular figures with the youth to be spouting Nazi-adjacent rhetoric as I've seen in the same time frame. I believe you should look better into your biases... Everything has become more polarised, and support for fascism and/or protofascists has grown in a way I had never expected it could happen again after WW2.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  > It has become popular to be far left; it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades. It's become popular in your cohort to be far left perhaps - but it hasn't in mine, and it definitely hasn't in the generation currently in high school. For example: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/massachusetts/articles/2023-06-13/at-school-pride-event-students-destroyed-decorations-chanted-usa-are-my-pronouns-officials-say https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/massachusetts/articl... Note that I don't care about that source in particular, it was just the first one that came up when I searched. The point is, that school had a vocal "rebellion" against what is commonly seen as a leftist plank. The reaction of the school's administration - and now, the media - certainly hasn't helped. If anything it has solidified those kids' views. For me, where I live (the US "Mid-South") it never became popular to be on the left. While perhaps "far" right isn't exactly popular; it's not uncommon, is accepted, and being on a moderate/right position is by far the majority of adults. As dumb as it sounds on its face, I honestly believe that "memes got Trump elected". The popularity of Internet culture, the sheer amount of nuance you can pack into a single image meme, and the sense of tribalism that comes from following the evolution of various memes (as in "image meme formats") over time that prevents "others" from understanding why they're funny is... well, it's hugely influential. If you see yourself as being on the left or far left, and you believe that the right is "uncool", I think you're going to be in for a rude awakening. The left-wing anti-establishment in the US has been the establishment for a long time now. Young people tend to be rebellious, and the only way to rebel against a rebellious culture is to embrace conformity.
noduerme 3y ago
I didn't read it as a "jab". I think it's important because people on the left often justify doing extreme things for "good" reasons, while people on the right justify doing extreme things for "moral" reasons. In other words, both sides also attract mature - indeed, philosophically diverse and well-marinated - people who are willing to say that the ends justify the means precisely because they understand one version of history and have drawn drastic conclusions from it. People who have thoroughly thought-out belief systems and historical examples to back up their contentions - and who have even considered or flipped from opposing points of view - are much more dangerous as spreaders of radicalism than any immature true believer.

by piva00 3y ago

4gotunameagain 3y ago

The jab was more targeted because one of these extremes is much more represented than the other, currently. It has become popular to be far left; it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
> it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades How did Trump and MAGA become successful if they're not popular?
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  Do you think that the voters of Trump are far right? Some of them are, sure. The success of Trump was due to the failure of the Democrats, not the popularity of far right.
  - piva00 3y ago
    The rhetoric of the far-right definitely became more commonplace, it's not necessarily that the majority Trump's voters are far-right but he has definitely opened a floodgate to empower the far-right not only in the USA but in other countries as well. If you hang out with Nazis, if you brush up with Nazis, you are very likely to become a Nazi yourself because no one that rejects Nazis would put themselves into that position... And I think it's pretty clear that Trump brushed shoulders with Nazis.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    Yes
piva00 3y ago
> it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades. I think we are living in very different realities then. I had never seen in my life vocal and open support for white supremacism as it's been since around 2015, I'm not in or from the USA, mind you. I also had never seen popular figures with the youth to be spouting Nazi-adjacent rhetoric as I've seen in the same time frame. I believe you should look better into your biases... Everything has become more polarised, and support for fascism and/or protofascists has grown in a way I had never expected it could happen again after WW2.
Ancapistani 3y ago
> It has become popular to be far left; it hasn't been popular to be far right in decades. It's become popular in your cohort to be far left perhaps - but it hasn't in mine, and it definitely hasn't in the generation currently in high school. For example: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/massachusetts/articles/2023-06-13/at-school-pride-event-students-destroyed-decorations-chanted-usa-are-my-pronouns-officials-say https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/massachusetts/articl... Note that I don't care about that source in particular, it was just the first one that came up when I searched. The point is, that school had a vocal "rebellion" against what is commonly seen as a leftist plank. The reaction of the school's administration - and now, the media - certainly hasn't helped. If anything it has solidified those kids' views. For me, where I live (the US "Mid-South") it never became popular to be on the left. While perhaps "far" right isn't exactly popular; it's not uncommon, is accepted, and being on a moderate/right position is by far the majority of adults. As dumb as it sounds on its face, I honestly believe that "memes got Trump elected". The popularity of Internet culture, the sheer amount of nuance you can pack into a single image meme, and the sense of tribalism that comes from following the evolution of various memes (as in "image meme formats") over time that prevents "others" from understanding why they're funny is... well, it's hugely influential. If you see yourself as being on the left or far left, and you believe that the right is "uncool", I think you're going to be in for a rude awakening. The left-wing anti-establishment in the US has been the establishment for a long time now. Young people tend to be rebellious, and the only way to rebel against a rebellious culture is to embrace conformity.

noduerme 3y ago

I didn't read it as a "jab". I think it's important because people on the left often justify doing extreme things for "good" reasons, while people on the right justify doing extreme things for "moral" reasons. In other words, both sides also attract mature - indeed, philosophically diverse and well-marinated - people who are willing to say that the ends justify the means precisely because they understand one version of history and have drawn drastic conclusions from it. People who have thoroughly thought-out belief systems and historical examples to back up their contentions - and who have even considered or flipped from opposing points of view - are much more dangerous as spreaders of radicalism than any immature true believer.