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> People's life courses have become unpredictable. For example, people earn a degree, work, and then study again and change their profession. When we moved to

by Tade0 3y ago

> People's life courses have become unpredictable. For example, people earn a degree, work, and then study again and change their profession. When we moved to Italy me and my SO joked that people in the west have two youths: one for generally screwing around and the other for picking up their first jobs, making initial career choices etc. Back home the age at which women give birth for the first time is lower than the EU average, but so is fertility rate - it's actually some of the lowest in the union. And this was visible when we returned after four years - in the meantime some of our friends went the, as my aunt puts it, "marriage, mortgage, family" route, while others seemingly changed nothing in their lifestyles. The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant.

0xcafefood 3y ago
> The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant. I think this is a good insight. I don't agree with your other comments that one can draw up a rational "pros vs cons" list to weigh the merits of reproducing and inevitably find it's a bad deal. It's ultimately a question of what gives you joy in life. We are now in an era where people who do not want to reproduce can choose not to without being celibate. Over time, this will select for a population more full of people who value children and will choose to have them. And, to your point, it will select for people will also choose to help their own children do the same. Essentially, strong selection pressure is currently being exerted (at least in developed societies) which selects specifically for people who innately want children. And that apparently also correlates strongly with other beliefs, like religiosity and traditional views.
Hendrikto 3y ago
> someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually Fulfilling other people‘s expectations is a really bad reason for having children.
- Tade0 3y ago
  Personally I don't believe in "reasons for having children". You either feel naturally compelled to do it, or not. Any reason for/against having children is a bad one. Anyone trying to do a "pros and cons" list on this topic will eventually arrive at the logical conclusion that it's not worth it. Whoever did such a summary and still decided to follow through is in for a bad time, because "pros" inevitably include someone else's expectations. That being said I've seen people postpone or, eventually, eschew having children entirely due to lack of support in the time window they had - especially from prospective grandparents applying pressure. And herein lies the crux of the issue: some people support bringing another generation to this world, others don't. As it stands the latter have slim chances of ever having grandchildren.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    "Natural compulsion" is a reason. A bad reason, born out of a failure of self-awareness and reflection, but a reason nonetheless.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

by Tade0 3y ago

0xcafefood 3y ago

> The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant. I think this is a good insight. I don't agree with your other comments that one can draw up a rational "pros vs cons" list to weigh the merits of reproducing and inevitably find it's a bad deal. It's ultimately a question of what gives you joy in life. We are now in an era where people who do not want to reproduce can choose not to without being celibate. Over time, this will select for a population more full of people who value children and will choose to have them. And, to your point, it will select for people will also choose to help their own children do the same. Essentially, strong selection pressure is currently being exerted (at least in developed societies) which selects specifically for people who innately want children. And that apparently also correlates strongly with other beliefs, like religiosity and traditional views.

Hendrikto 3y ago

> someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually Fulfilling other people‘s expectations is a really bad reason for having children.

Tade0 3y ago
Personally I don't believe in "reasons for having children". You either feel naturally compelled to do it, or not. Any reason for/against having children is a bad one. Anyone trying to do a "pros and cons" list on this topic will eventually arrive at the logical conclusion that it's not worth it. Whoever did such a summary and still decided to follow through is in for a bad time, because "pros" inevitably include someone else's expectations. That being said I've seen people postpone or, eventually, eschew having children entirely due to lack of support in the time window they had - especially from prospective grandparents applying pressure. And herein lies the crux of the issue: some people support bringing another generation to this world, others don't. As it stands the latter have slim chances of ever having grandchildren.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  "Natural compulsion" is a reason. A bad reason, born out of a failure of self-awareness and reflection, but a reason nonetheless.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]