4 ms·

Unison Language and Platform Roadmap

44 points by luu 3y ago

oftenwrong 3y ago
Content-addressed ASTs make so many problems go away. No dependency hell. No merge conflicts. Fully incremental build, test, distribution, etc. Everyone can use their preferred formatting, or even their own syntax. I think the future of programming will involve this paradigm.
- frodowtf 3y ago
  Do you have any follow up links on this topic by chance? I seem to have missed it in the docs.
  - nimos 3y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWtkvDQ2ZI& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWtkvDQ2ZI& This video is a little old but I remember finding it really interesting and I think dives into it a bit.
- nivertech 3y ago
  Just content-addressability isn’t enough, there should be also canonical forms, I.e. h = hash(to_canonical_form(AST)) Preferably, there should be one-and-only-one way to perform or compute things, but modern PLs plagued by flexibility syndrome. Also, the same should be done for the binaries, since the same AST may produce different binaries, unless you take into account all the compiler options, and runtime differences.
  - geysersam 3y ago
    I think this is impossible in theory (but maybe not in practice ;)) Determining if two programs are equivalent is generally as hard as running the programs for every input and comparing them.
    - nivertech 3y ago
      Yes, I'm talking about practical solutions, similarly like Halting Problem doesn't have a solution according to the CS, but there are practical solutions like the one used in Ethereum with its gas-based metering, or disallowing recursion or unbounded loops. Some practical solutions: - reduce code variability, by removing similar/alternative programming constructs / flexibility syndrome - stick to a single programming paradigm - remove syntactic sugar, or provide a clear rules to reduce it to a sugarless canonical form - use a rich standard library (to avoid reimplementing the same functionality in different ways) - use rich standard data types (to avoid definition of the similar types in different ways) - sort every unordered construct, similarly how AWS signature sorts the keys before calculating the API call signature - reduce the use of macros, custom eDSLs, or highly personalized code (by making writing this kind of code inconvinient) - etc.
- geysersam 3y ago
  > no merge conflicts In what sense? I mean, in the following code # version 0 name = "bob" I branch and change to # version 1 name = "alice" And you update the main branch to # version 2 name = "clair" Then I'll still have a merge conflict right? How does a content addressed AST solve the problem of having a different intent?
  - oftenwrong 3y ago
    Definitions are immutable. Changes to the codebase may add new definitions, but cannot change existing definitions. The codebase only grows larger as it is changed. To give an analogy, it's like having a git repo where the only change you can commit is to add new files; you will never have a conflict with such a restriction. However, Unison does make use of names. You can change 'name' to point to a new definition, but it does not affect existing definitions that depended on the old definition for 'name'. https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/usage-topics/workflow-how-tos/resolve-conflicts/ https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/usage-topics/workflow-how-...
- schemescape 3y ago
  I’m surprised I haven’t seen a Lisp with content-addressed ASTs, given that it already is authored at the AST level.
predictabl3 3y ago
I'd really, really love to read/hear more about Unison from the perspective of a Nix user/dev/enthusiast. And/or just a larger "example" app to chew on.
sergiotapia 3y ago
It's so unfortunate they decided to go with the Clojure/Haskell type syntax, as opposed to something friendlier like Elixir. A lot of people will not even try this language as a result. :(
- iamevn 3y ago
  The syntax is quite a bit like Haskell but that's mostly surface level here and imo it's quite it a bit simpler and easier to pick up. I'm curious what you mean by comparing it to Clojure when Unison is not really lispy at all. Personally I found Unison easy to pick up the basics for despite being unfamiliar with Haskell beforehand (although underlying ideas of how to structure things took a bit of time for me to figure out).
toastal 3y ago
They’ll have a difficult time attracting some users when the only chat option is proprietary and to join the “ecosystem” users must create a Microsoft GitHub account in order to sign-in. We’ve seen stories of accounts banned (like the star hacking situation) where a user could be entirely locked out of a community on Slack or Microsoft’s terms, not the community’s.
dang 3y ago
Related. Others? A look at Unison: a revolutionary programming language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307552 - Jan 2023 (84 comments) The Unison language – a new approach to Distributed programming - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33638045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33638045 - Nov 2022 (113 comments) Unison Programming Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652677 - June 2021 (131 comments) Unison: A Content-Addressable Programming Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156370 - Jan 2020 (12 comments) The Unison language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22009912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22009912 - Jan 2020 (141 comments) Unison – A statically-typed purely functional language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20807997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20807997 - Aug 2019 (25 comments) Unison: a next-generation programming platform - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9512955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9512955 - May 2015 (128 comments)
schemescape 3y ago
Unison is neat, but who is paying for the infrastructure (now and in the future)? Maybe I’m not understanding, but it seems like there’s a single global instance somewhere.
- sparkie 3y ago
  Content-addressability means you don't need any infrastructure. You should be able to distribute code over IPFS for example. There is no need for a central repository of any kind. Anyone can ship their own version of a library or program and there are no conflicts because they all have different content ids. Unison language authors simply need to publish a hash of their latest release, and distribute the hash to users through any medium. Users can then retrieve the entire code base from its hash. At least, this should be the goal, and content-addressability makes this feasible.
  - schemescape 3y ago
    Yeah, but the docs mention spinning up HTTP endpoints, so there is presumably a host somewhere. Great points, though!
alex_lav 3y ago
So it's just...haskell but different?
- acmiyaguchi 3y ago
  As I understand it, part of the value proposition are the features that simplify distributed computation [0]. You define a function, and then you can refer to it by some internet global hash. The packaging reminds me a bit of Val Town, which has been featured here a few times [1]. [0] https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/the-big-idea/ https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/the-big-idea/ [1] https://www.val.town/ https://www.val.town/
- tikhonj 3y ago
  Even on its own, that's hardly a "just" :P But Unison is a lot more: it has a model that makes distributed computing feel like native code, and a content-addressed code representation system that solves a ton of tooling problems around versioning and deploying code. It's one of the most legitimately novel and powerful language projects I've ever seen, and I'm not saying that lightly.
- HKH2 3y ago
  I remember when I last used Haskell a few years ago, quite a few packages on Hackage were broken, Cabal was a pain to deal with, and although Stack fixed things, it added to the complexity. I know things have improved since then, but I can't imagine how replacing the build system wouldn't improve things a lot.
- brabel 3y ago
  It's completely different except for syntax. Unison does not have monads, it has an effect system they call "abilities", which is quite innovative. Unison code is not stored in "textual" format, but directly in its AST form where everything has a content hash-address which is used to reference things everywhere. That's why they can take any function and send it for execution elsewhere in the cloud or whatever. It's also why there's no build system, and no dependency version conflict. In summary, it's completely different than Haskell and most other languages, all you needed to do was visit the website and read a little bit to know that.

44 points by luu 3y ago

Content-addressed ASTs make so many problems go away. No dependency hell. No merge conflicts. Fully incremental build, test, distribution, etc. Everyone can use their preferred formatting, or even their own syntax. I think the future of programming will involve this paradigm.

frodowtf 3y ago
Do you have any follow up links on this topic by chance? I seem to have missed it in the docs.
- nimos 3y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWtkvDQ2ZI& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWtkvDQ2ZI& This video is a little old but I remember finding it really interesting and I think dives into it a bit.
nivertech 3y ago
Just content-addressability isn’t enough, there should be also canonical forms, I.e. h = hash(to_canonical_form(AST)) Preferably, there should be one-and-only-one way to perform or compute things, but modern PLs plagued by flexibility syndrome. Also, the same should be done for the binaries, since the same AST may produce different binaries, unless you take into account all the compiler options, and runtime differences.
- geysersam 3y ago
  I think this is impossible in theory (but maybe not in practice ;)) Determining if two programs are equivalent is generally as hard as running the programs for every input and comparing them.
  - nivertech 3y ago
    Yes, I'm talking about practical solutions, similarly like Halting Problem doesn't have a solution according to the CS, but there are practical solutions like the one used in Ethereum with its gas-based metering, or disallowing recursion or unbounded loops. Some practical solutions: - reduce code variability, by removing similar/alternative programming constructs / flexibility syndrome - stick to a single programming paradigm - remove syntactic sugar, or provide a clear rules to reduce it to a sugarless canonical form - use a rich standard library (to avoid reimplementing the same functionality in different ways) - use rich standard data types (to avoid definition of the similar types in different ways) - sort every unordered construct, similarly how AWS signature sorts the keys before calculating the API call signature - reduce the use of macros, custom eDSLs, or highly personalized code (by making writing this kind of code inconvinient) - etc.
geysersam 3y ago
> no merge conflicts In what sense? I mean, in the following code # version 0 name = "bob" I branch and change to # version 1 name = "alice" And you update the main branch to # version 2 name = "clair" Then I'll still have a merge conflict right? How does a content addressed AST solve the problem of having a different intent?
- oftenwrong 3y ago
  Definitions are immutable. Changes to the codebase may add new definitions, but cannot change existing definitions. The codebase only grows larger as it is changed. To give an analogy, it's like having a git repo where the only change you can commit is to add new files; you will never have a conflict with such a restriction. However, Unison does make use of names. You can change 'name' to point to a new definition, but it does not affect existing definitions that depended on the old definition for 'name'. https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/usage-topics/workflow-how-tos/resolve-conflicts/ https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/usage-topics/workflow-how-...
schemescape 3y ago
I’m surprised I haven’t seen a Lisp with content-addressed ASTs, given that it already is authored at the AST level.

predictabl3 3y ago

I'd really, really love to read/hear more about Unison from the perspective of a Nix user/dev/enthusiast. And/or just a larger "example" app to chew on.

sergiotapia 3y ago

It's so unfortunate they decided to go with the Clojure/Haskell type syntax, as opposed to something friendlier like Elixir. A lot of people will not even try this language as a result. :(

iamevn 3y ago
The syntax is quite a bit like Haskell but that's mostly surface level here and imo it's quite it a bit simpler and easier to pick up. I'm curious what you mean by comparing it to Clojure when Unison is not really lispy at all. Personally I found Unison easy to pick up the basics for despite being unfamiliar with Haskell beforehand (although underlying ideas of how to structure things took a bit of time for me to figure out).

toastal 3y ago

They’ll have a difficult time attracting some users when the only chat option is proprietary and to join the “ecosystem” users must create a Microsoft GitHub account in order to sign-in. We’ve seen stories of accounts banned (like the star hacking situation) where a user could be entirely locked out of a community on Slack or Microsoft’s terms, not the community’s.

dang 3y ago

Related. Others? A look at Unison: a revolutionary programming language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307552 - Jan 2023 (84 comments) The Unison language – a new approach to Distributed programming - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33638045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33638045 - Nov 2022 (113 comments) Unison Programming Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652677 - June 2021 (131 comments) Unison: A Content-Addressable Programming Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156370 - Jan 2020 (12 comments) The Unison language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22009912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22009912 - Jan 2020 (141 comments) Unison – A statically-typed purely functional language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20807997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20807997 - Aug 2019 (25 comments) Unison: a next-generation programming platform - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9512955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9512955 - May 2015 (128 comments)

schemescape 3y ago

Unison is neat, but who is paying for the infrastructure (now and in the future)? Maybe I’m not understanding, but it seems like there’s a single global instance somewhere.

sparkie 3y ago
Content-addressability means you don't need any infrastructure. You should be able to distribute code over IPFS for example. There is no need for a central repository of any kind. Anyone can ship their own version of a library or program and there are no conflicts because they all have different content ids. Unison language authors simply need to publish a hash of their latest release, and distribute the hash to users through any medium. Users can then retrieve the entire code base from its hash. At least, this should be the goal, and content-addressability makes this feasible.
- schemescape 3y ago
  Yeah, but the docs mention spinning up HTTP endpoints, so there is presumably a host somewhere. Great points, though!

alex_lav 3y ago

So it's just...haskell but different?

acmiyaguchi 3y ago
As I understand it, part of the value proposition are the features that simplify distributed computation [0]. You define a function, and then you can refer to it by some internet global hash. The packaging reminds me a bit of Val Town, which has been featured here a few times [1]. [0] https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/the-big-idea/ https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/the-big-idea/ [1] https://www.val.town/ https://www.val.town/
tikhonj 3y ago
Even on its own, that's hardly a "just" :P But Unison is a lot more: it has a model that makes distributed computing feel like native code, and a content-addressed code representation system that solves a ton of tooling problems around versioning and deploying code. It's one of the most legitimately novel and powerful language projects I've ever seen, and I'm not saying that lightly.
HKH2 3y ago
I remember when I last used Haskell a few years ago, quite a few packages on Hackage were broken, Cabal was a pain to deal with, and although Stack fixed things, it added to the complexity. I know things have improved since then, but I can't imagine how replacing the build system wouldn't improve things a lot.
brabel 3y ago
It's completely different except for syntax. Unison does not have monads, it has an effect system they call "abilities", which is quite innovative. Unison code is not stored in "textual" format, but directly in its AST form where everything has a content hash-address which is used to reference things everywhere. That's why they can take any function and send it for execution elsewhere in the cloud or whatever. It's also why there's no build system, and no dependency version conflict. In summary, it's completely different than Haskell and most other languages, all you needed to do was visit the website and read a little bit to know that.