4 ms·

Why worry ? It's already guaranteed to be the case. Apps will not have direct access to the cameras, meaning that the Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy

Why worry ? It's already guaranteed to be the case. Apps will not have direct access to the cameras, meaning that the Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. You also cannot access any depth information, or anything that would make it useful as a general 3D computing device. You can't access eye tracking, so say good bye to foveated rendering. And since you can't have foveated rendering, well you're now rendering 2x 4k images on a relatively underpowered device.

ladberg 3y ago
Foveated rendering is supported by default. Most apps will rely on the OS's renderer and not their own so they don't have to do anything with eye tracking to have it enabled. EDIT: See cma's comment below which adds more info: apps that use their own render still support foveated rendering too.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  Exactly. If you want to do anything without going through Apple's benediction, you're shit out of luck. It's one more episode in the war on general computing, except somehow it's okay when Apple restricts what you can do with your three thousand five hundred dollar ski goggles.
  - toasterrepair 3y ago
    It's okay for the general user.
  - zgluck 3y ago
    Yeah. To state the obvious: Apps will no longer run full screen; they will run as a 2D window in a 3D space. When Apple allows it the user will be able to ask the app to go full 3D (well, hopefully). All of this is: Apple taking further control of the experience.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    To me it seems like less of a war on general computing and more like Apple is hoping to prevent mixed reality or "spatial computing" from becoming an extension on the privacy disaster that smartphones became. This seems prudent, because as personal as smartphones are, a headset like the Vision Pro dials that up tenfold. Considering what third parties have done with just the information surfaced in mobile operating systems, or heck even the web, I shudder to think of what they'd do with gaze data and a high fidelity color 3D map of your surroundings.
    - archagon 3y ago
      That’s great for the general case, but it should be also possible for a user to do whatever they want with their own hardware.
      - kitsunesoba 3y ago
        If there's a way to accomplish this without opening headset users into being easily socially engineered into figuratively selling the farm, sure. In this particular case I think perhaps a better approach would be to allow apps to bypass App Store restrictions so long as their source code is public and binaries match that code. This would naturally deter those with shady intentions, allow FOSS projects to thrive, allow both manual and automated third party vetting of apps, and help users better know what they're getting into.
- cma 3y ago
  Foveated is available on native renderers/custom engines too: (source: "Discover Metal for immersive apps - WWDC23 - Videos - Apple Developer " https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10089/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10089/) If they try to hide it by restricting access to reading the foveation texture, you can be sure anti privacy apps like Immersive Facebook will try tricks like recovering it from GPU timestamp queries (render two transparent triangles covering the screen in separate draw calls, find which took the longest, subdivide and repeat).
krger 3y ago
>Apps will not have direct access to the cameras A restriction for which I am thankful. >Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. I trust Apple a lot more than I trust the "let's figure out how to fingerprint users based on how they scroll and other metrics and use it to sell ads" crowd. >You can't access eye tracking, A restriction for which I am thankful. >so say good bye to foveated rendering. Vision Pro does foveated rendering.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Now can the adults use their devices? The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Metal supporting it, without any API documentation out.
  - krger 3y ago
    >Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Apple isn't telling me that I can't be trusted. Apple is telling me that it's a stupid idea to trust third-party developers with unfettered access to my data, and they're not even a little bit wrong. This has been happening at least since the "Foursquare is uploading and storing every user's contacts" fiasco well over a decade ago. > Now can the adults use their devices? Of course. Feel free to bring to market your wonderful headset that allows VC-funded startups to create a never-ending torrent of privacy hellscape diarrhea apps you can enjoy until they implode. >The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Metal supporting it, without any API documentation out. That's because the API has yet to be released to developers. Perhaps you can wait until it is to get your mouth all frothy, sunshine.
    - 3y ago
thebigman433 3y ago
> Apps will not have direct access to the cameras Is there any headset that does allow this currently? Doesnt seem like any kind of differentiating factor
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  Every single headset in the world that has cameras. The HoloLens, anything that uses OpenXR and OpenVR (so, pretty much 100% of the current PCVR market), hell even the Quest has a Passthrough API. The Vision Pro is pretty much the only one that doesn't, because Apple thinks of their users as children.
  - thebigman433 3y ago
    A passthrough API, but you absolutely do not get access to the headset cameras on any of those devices. Apple is very much in line with the standard here, you can make passthrough apps, but you cannot actually get the real data from the cameras.

ladberg 3y ago

Foveated rendering is supported by default. Most apps will rely on the OS's renderer and not their own so they don't have to do anything with eye tracking to have it enabled. EDIT: See cma's comment below which adds more info: apps that use their own render still support foveated rendering too.

ohgodplsno 3y ago
Exactly. If you want to do anything without going through Apple's benediction, you're shit out of luck. It's one more episode in the war on general computing, except somehow it's okay when Apple restricts what you can do with your three thousand five hundred dollar ski goggles.
- toasterrepair 3y ago
  It's okay for the general user.
- zgluck 3y ago
  Yeah. To state the obvious: Apps will no longer run full screen; they will run as a 2D window in a 3D space. When Apple allows it the user will be able to ask the app to go full 3D (well, hopefully). All of this is: Apple taking further control of the experience.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  To me it seems like less of a war on general computing and more like Apple is hoping to prevent mixed reality or "spatial computing" from becoming an extension on the privacy disaster that smartphones became. This seems prudent, because as personal as smartphones are, a headset like the Vision Pro dials that up tenfold. Considering what third parties have done with just the information surfaced in mobile operating systems, or heck even the web, I shudder to think of what they'd do with gaze data and a high fidelity color 3D map of your surroundings.
  - archagon 3y ago
    That’s great for the general case, but it should be also possible for a user to do whatever they want with their own hardware.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      If there's a way to accomplish this without opening headset users into being easily socially engineered into figuratively selling the farm, sure. In this particular case I think perhaps a better approach would be to allow apps to bypass App Store restrictions so long as their source code is public and binaries match that code. This would naturally deter those with shady intentions, allow FOSS projects to thrive, allow both manual and automated third party vetting of apps, and help users better know what they're getting into.
cma 3y ago
Foveated is available on native renderers/custom engines too: (source: "Discover Metal for immersive apps - WWDC23 - Videos - Apple Developer " https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10089/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10089/) If they try to hide it by restricting access to reading the foveation texture, you can be sure anti privacy apps like Immersive Facebook will try tricks like recovering it from GPU timestamp queries (render two transparent triangles covering the screen in separate draw calls, find which took the longest, subdivide and repeat).

krger 3y ago

>Apps will not have direct access to the cameras A restriction for which I am thankful. >Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. I trust Apple a lot more than I trust the "let's figure out how to fingerprint users based on how they scroll and other metrics and use it to sell ads" crowd. >You can't access eye tracking, A restriction for which I am thankful. >so say good bye to foveated rendering. Vision Pro does foveated rendering.

ohgodplsno 3y ago
Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Now can the adults use their devices? The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Metal supporting it, without any API documentation out.
- krger 3y ago
  >Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Apple isn't telling me that I can't be trusted. Apple is telling me that it's a stupid idea to trust third-party developers with unfettered access to my data, and they're not even a little bit wrong. This has been happening at least since the "Foursquare is uploading and storing every user's contacts" fiasco well over a decade ago. > Now can the adults use their devices? Of course. Feel free to bring to market your wonderful headset that allows VC-funded startups to create a never-ending torrent of privacy hellscape diarrhea apps you can enjoy until they implode. >The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Metal supporting it, without any API documentation out. That's because the API has yet to be released to developers. Perhaps you can wait until it is to get your mouth all frothy, sunshine.
  - 3y ago

thebigman433 3y ago

> Apps will not have direct access to the cameras Is there any headset that does allow this currently? Doesnt seem like any kind of differentiating factor

ohgodplsno 3y ago
Every single headset in the world that has cameras. The HoloLens, anything that uses OpenXR and OpenVR (so, pretty much 100% of the current PCVR market), hell even the Quest has a Passthrough API. The Vision Pro is pretty much the only one that doesn't, because Apple thinks of their users as children.
- thebigman433 3y ago
  A passthrough API, but you absolutely do not get access to the headset cameras on any of those devices. Apple is very much in line with the standard here, you can make passthrough apps, but you cannot actually get the real data from the cameras.