4 ms·

Email is dying too. I have run my own email server for 20 years. A few years ago my original ISP was acquired, forcing me to switch providers and hence get a

by lisper 3y ago

Email is dying too. I have run my own email server for 20 years. A few years ago my original ISP was acquired, forcing me to switch providers and hence get a new IP address. Ever since then my server has been blacklisted by one major player or another as a source of spam. I even tried changing to a new IP address, but the result of that was just a different set of providers blacklisting me. I'm about ready to throw in the towel and switch to Fastmail. :-(

mmh0000 3y ago
I had this exact experience, I had an email server running on the same ISP for 15 years, got great delivery. I got a new ISP, blacklisted nearly everywhere. IP reputation is super hard and time consuming to build. So I made the switch to Fastmail, and honestly, it's the best descision I made. Migrating was super simple, and they've been rock-solid for me. I didn't realize how much time I was wasting administrating an email server with one user until I switched.
- lisper 3y ago
  I spend pretty much zero time administering my server. Once it's set up, it pretty much just runs itself. The reason I want to run my own server is that I want to run my own spam filter, whose algorithm requires seeing my outgoing mail as well as my incoming. (Though I guess I could do that through IMAP by looking at my SENT folder. But for me it's also just the principle of the thing. I remember the good old days, and I'm not going down without a fight.)
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  How much does it cost for a low to moderate traffic (annually) "your own domain" server?
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    $50/year for fastmail. One of the very few things I pay for online other than my ISP service. A VPS is cheaper if you actually want to run your own, but the cheap VPSs typically have very bad IP reputations.
    - thanosapollo 3y ago
      [dead]
capableweb 3y ago
In the end, what you need if you want really reliable self hosting is to own your own ASN and IP range, so you can tightly control the quality. Review how clean the addresses are before purchasing them and continuously review it for the duration you own them, as some been used for spam previously.
- Anthony-G 3y ago
  Unfortunately, you’re probably right. I’ve been self-hosting (email, web and DNS) for the past 10 years. So far, the only issue I’ve had was GMail rate-limiting my server when I had to email about the 30 members of a local voluntary group as part of secretarial duties. However, it made me aware that the delivery of emails sent by my server is more akin to a “privilege” than a “right” on the modern Internet. By the way, I just upvoted a reply you previously made to another comment of mine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36032588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36032588 Thanks for providing that example of how homoglyphs can be used to “fingerprint” plain text. I also discovered that with Vim digraphs, I can easily input spaces that are look the same as regular space characters.
- lisper 3y ago
  > to own your own ASN and IP range Can I have a puppy too?
  - capableweb 3y ago
    It's quite expensive, yes. But removes a lot of headaches (while introducing some new ones), is a great learning exercise and is most probably a solid investment when it comes to ipv4 at least, prices keep going up and it won't just disappear in the near future.
- brianblaze420 3y ago
  This is the way I think personally. I recently changed my mail server host, had to unblock the IP from MS and all that but since, it has been smooth sailing... for now.
MrOwen 3y ago
If you're planning to offload to a third party anyway, why don't you instead first try routing mail though AWS SES? You'll definitely get better delivery and at least you'll be able to control the rest of the stack.
- lisper 3y ago
  How is Amazon better than Fastmail? (I actually already have a Fastmail account, and I use it to deliver mail to domains where my server is blacklisted. But even that little concession feels like defeat.)
  - MrOwen 3y ago
    Not sure about better, just different since it's strictly an MTA. But perhaps you can also use Fastmail as an MTA only? Biggest benefit I can think of is with SES, Amazon would never see any of your incoming mail. Well, unless you replied to something. Then I suppose they would have access to it indirectly.
    - lisper 3y ago
      > perhaps you can also use Fastmail as an MTA only Yes, and that's what I actually do to solve my current problem. But one of the reasons I run my own email server is to maintain my claim to fourth-amendment protections in light of Smith v. Maryland so I really don't want my mail being routed through a third party.
- sigstoat 3y ago
  there are also small companies which deliver the same service, if that appeals. i've been using mailroute.net for delivery and spam prevention for a small business for years.
SoftTalker 3y ago
Email is shrinking, for sure, but there are still a lot of options and providers and if you're hard core you can run your own if you're willing to pay for a clean IP address. There's only one reddit.
- lisper 3y ago
  > if you're willing to pay for a clean IP address I would be more than happy to do that. Where would I find one?
micromacrofoot 3y ago
I would strongly advise anyone considering hosting their own email these days to do literally anything else. You'll be more fulfilled by abandoning email entirely and writing letters with a fountain pen, if you're looking for a new hobby. It's not a matter of if a private server will get blackholed anymore, it's when.
zbuf 3y ago
Who are you hosting on?
- lisper 3y ago
  Linode.
  - zbuf 3y ago
    Don't throw in the towel, switch ISP. You can do everything right but are being judged by the history of your IP address with it's neighbours in the same AS block.
    - lisper 3y ago
      > switch ISP To what? Switching ISPs is what got me into this mess in the first place. Also, I really like Linode but for this one issue.
      - zbuf 3y ago
        There's lots of smaller VPS and VM providers -- even local IT companies. Mythic Beasts and Bytemark have been good for me. If you want to use Linode for your CPU time and disk, probably there are providers for outbound SMTP that you pay a small amount for to use as a smarthost.
stOneskull 3y ago
migadu is a good option too

by lisper 3y ago

mmh0000 3y ago

I had this exact experience, I had an email server running on the same ISP for 15 years, got great delivery. I got a new ISP, blacklisted nearly everywhere. IP reputation is super hard and time consuming to build. So I made the switch to Fastmail, and honestly, it's the best descision I made. Migrating was super simple, and they've been rock-solid for me. I didn't realize how much time I was wasting administrating an email server with one user until I switched.

lisper 3y ago
I spend pretty much zero time administering my server. Once it's set up, it pretty much just runs itself. The reason I want to run my own server is that I want to run my own spam filter, whose algorithm requires seeing my outgoing mail as well as my incoming. (Though I guess I could do that through IMAP by looking at my SENT folder. But for me it's also just the principle of the thing. I remember the good old days, and I'm not going down without a fight.)
lost_tourist 3y ago
How much does it cost for a low to moderate traffic (annually) "your own domain" server?
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  $50/year for fastmail. One of the very few things I pay for online other than my ISP service. A VPS is cheaper if you actually want to run your own, but the cheap VPSs typically have very bad IP reputations.
  - thanosapollo 3y ago
    [dead]

capableweb 3y ago

In the end, what you need if you want really reliable self hosting is to own your own ASN and IP range, so you can tightly control the quality. Review how clean the addresses are before purchasing them and continuously review it for the duration you own them, as some been used for spam previously.

Anthony-G 3y ago
Unfortunately, you’re probably right. I’ve been self-hosting (email, web and DNS) for the past 10 years. So far, the only issue I’ve had was GMail rate-limiting my server when I had to email about the 30 members of a local voluntary group as part of secretarial duties. However, it made me aware that the delivery of emails sent by my server is more akin to a “privilege” than a “right” on the modern Internet. By the way, I just upvoted a reply you previously made to another comment of mine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36032588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36032588 Thanks for providing that example of how homoglyphs can be used to “fingerprint” plain text. I also discovered that with Vim digraphs, I can easily input spaces that are look the same as regular space characters.
lisper 3y ago
> to own your own ASN and IP range Can I have a puppy too?
- capableweb 3y ago
  It's quite expensive, yes. But removes a lot of headaches (while introducing some new ones), is a great learning exercise and is most probably a solid investment when it comes to ipv4 at least, prices keep going up and it won't just disappear in the near future.
brianblaze420 3y ago
This is the way I think personally. I recently changed my mail server host, had to unblock the IP from MS and all that but since, it has been smooth sailing... for now.

MrOwen 3y ago

If you're planning to offload to a third party anyway, why don't you instead first try routing mail though AWS SES? You'll definitely get better delivery and at least you'll be able to control the rest of the stack.

lisper 3y ago
How is Amazon better than Fastmail? (I actually already have a Fastmail account, and I use it to deliver mail to domains where my server is blacklisted. But even that little concession feels like defeat.)
- MrOwen 3y ago
  Not sure about better, just different since it's strictly an MTA. But perhaps you can also use Fastmail as an MTA only? Biggest benefit I can think of is with SES, Amazon would never see any of your incoming mail. Well, unless you replied to something. Then I suppose they would have access to it indirectly.
  - lisper 3y ago
    > perhaps you can also use Fastmail as an MTA only Yes, and that's what I actually do to solve my current problem. But one of the reasons I run my own email server is to maintain my claim to fourth-amendment protections in light of Smith v. Maryland so I really don't want my mail being routed through a third party.
sigstoat 3y ago
there are also small companies which deliver the same service, if that appeals. i've been using mailroute.net for delivery and spam prevention for a small business for years.

SoftTalker 3y ago

Email is shrinking, for sure, but there are still a lot of options and providers and if you're hard core you can run your own if you're willing to pay for a clean IP address. There's only one reddit.

lisper 3y ago
> if you're willing to pay for a clean IP address I would be more than happy to do that. Where would I find one?

micromacrofoot 3y ago

I would strongly advise anyone considering hosting their own email these days to do literally anything else. You'll be more fulfilled by abandoning email entirely and writing letters with a fountain pen, if you're looking for a new hobby. It's not a matter of if a private server will get blackholed anymore, it's when.

zbuf 3y ago

Who are you hosting on?

lisper 3y ago
Linode.
- zbuf 3y ago
  Don't throw in the towel, switch ISP. You can do everything right but are being judged by the history of your IP address with it's neighbours in the same AS block.
  - lisper 3y ago
    > switch ISP To what? Switching ISPs is what got me into this mess in the first place. Also, I really like Linode but for this one issue.
    - zbuf 3y ago
      There's lots of smaller VPS and VM providers -- even local IT companies. Mythic Beasts and Bytemark have been good for me. If you want to use Linode for your CPU time and disk, probably there are providers for outbound SMTP that you pay a small amount for to use as a smarthost.

stOneskull 3y ago

migadu is a good option too