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These guys seem cool, but if you're going to attack Apple, "it runs Apple's locked-down OS!" and "they don't provide hardware specs!" are not the avenues to go

These guys seem cool, but if you're going to attack Apple, "it runs Apple's locked-down OS!" and "they don't provide hardware specs!" are not the avenues to go with. These are the exact same problems people have been berating Apple for for years/decades, and the market has repeatedly and decisively demonstrated that it doesn't give a shit.

georgewsinger 3y ago
Our critique isn't so much about Apple's locked down OS as much as it is "you won't be able to run powerhouse apps from macOS to get your more serious work done". We hope & expect consumers to love the Apple headset(!), because it seems better/more focused on productivity use cases than the gaming headsets currently on the market. But in order for it to "actually replace a laptop", bringing iPad/iPhone apps into VR isn't quite enough, in our opinion.
- spacedcowboy 3y ago
  You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? And you can (from reviews) read and interact with text on your phone, so typing on the keypad with an appropriate level of immersion seems feasible - hell maybe even with total immersion, there's a ways until they're actually launched... Given that this is a full-blown M2 on-board, I think relegating it to "just like an iPad" is a little lacking in foresight, but I guess we'll all see how it pans out...
  - bodge5000 3y ago
    > You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? You can already do that with something like XReal Air for 10x less (both the price and the weight). > Given that this is a full-blown M2 on-board, I think relegating it to "just like an iPad" is a little lacking in foresight The ability to have multiple virtual monitors with a mac? Thats a game changer (potentially). The ability to run multiple virtual monitors with an iPad? Pretty cool I guess, not sure what I'd use them for though. It'd be nice for watching movies, but again, see above, XReal (and probably a load of others by now) already has that covered. Put it this way, theres a reason sidecar lets you use your ipad as a second display for your mac and not the other way around
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    There are iPads that also have a full-blown M2 on board and are still just like an iPad so it seems like a fair comparison.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    > You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? I did but all I saw was a virtual mirror of the Mac's screen. Not apps. The mirror is the app, more like running a remote desktop app on the 3D world. I didn't see VS Code running on its own virtual window. I didn't see iTerm running on its own window, separate to VS Code's. I didn't see a Mac's Firefox running on its own window, separate to the other 2. Sure, you can run visionOS's Safari, and probably even visionOS's Firefox in the future, or their iPad counterparts, but they're not nearly as powerful as the desktop's. You can already mirror your Mac to an iPad. In fact, you can use the iPad as an extra screen for your Mac. In that sense, AVP is in fact not much more than an iPad with a spatial interface.
    - spacedcowboy 3y ago
      I'm reasonably certain that the team developing this have enough on their plate to not write their own custom apps just yet, and they're certainly not going to let 3rd parties close to it just yet. There is an App Store icon in the video when the "menu" comes into view. That's a pretty heavy implication that there's going to be native apps running on the thing.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        I 100% expect visionOS to have native apps. I never said anything in contrary.
    - treesciencebot 3y ago
      This is an amazing point. I was also thinking about the question in the parent, but reading this now makes me realize that unlimited monitors are nice but that's not what I would want for a truly immersive "spatial computing" experience.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        Yeah exactly. I don't want to stream my Mac's screen. I want to stream individual apps. Better yet, I just want to run those apps on the device and be free of the Mac. Add to that the ability to connect to an actual display, and this device could in fact finally replace a MacBook.
  - Auracle 3y ago
    One thing that’s super frustrating about this is that developing VR/AR apps right now kind of sucks. You do what you can to test functionality without the headset on because taking it off and on 200 times a day is awful. This product is in the position to make that all super streamlined, but it seems that it won’t be. To be fair, my experience is in games and non-gaming apps might not be as bad. Also, I don’t personally own a Mac. I have a PC, and while I might be willing to plop down the money for the Vision Pro if it worked completely standalone but I absolutely won’t get it and a Mac.
- dylan604 3y ago
  >"you won't be able to run powerhouse apps from macOS to get your more serious work done" why would you try to run a powerhouse app on a computer strapped to your face vs running it on the hardware it's designed to run on and share the screen of that system to the one strapped to your face? Just like they demonstrated being a key selling point. powerhouse apps tend to make the hardware run the fans from all of the heat being generated. no way would i want that near my face
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    cost, portability, better integration with the AR OS (as supported by the developers). SimulaVR do seem to agree with you though w.r.t strapping it to your face and have the compute tethered the same way vision pro has the battery tethered.
- samora 3y ago
  You are mistaken in seeing iOS frameworks as a limitation. It is an advantage! It is the natural fit for the eye tracking and hand gestures because those apps will work flawlessly with no change. You are also mistaken in thinking Mac OS can't work with Vision Pro, because it can. Apple has put a trojan horse in Vision Pro by giving us any number of screens we want to use with our Macs. In the future Apple will bundle Mac OS and iOS in Vision Pro. It is the ultimate evolution of computing. This is my prediction. Vision Pro will replace both the iPhone/iPad and Mac. All of it can coexist perfectly in Vision Pro. This is what you should do. Copy Apple. Make your headset work with Android. Allow Linux and Windows to also be able to work through the headset with existing computers, by providing virtual screens. In the future you can offer a version of your headset with either Linux or Windows, but Android must definitely be in the first version of your headset. This is the only chance you have.
conradev 3y ago
The critique is that iPads are less effective for serious work than Macs. Apple continually markets the iPad as a capable everything device, when it is less capable than a Mac, even though the iPad Pro shares the same SoC. Every professional I know who owns an iPad also owns a macOS/Linux/Windows computer. If an iPad is a computer replacement… then it should replace a computer.
- msla 3y ago
  I think you missed the point: You are to channel your frustration into those terms, so your complaints can be dismissed. Why else would they mention those things?
  - conradev 3y ago
    from the article: > While a premium VR headset built over iOS apps is a step in the right direction, we worry it could seriously hinder the device's ability to serve as a true laptop replacement. This is because the iPhone/iPad iOS is more driven towards the passive consumption of information than it is maximally productive work. I was just agreeing with and rehashing the article
dwallin 3y ago
It's valid in this case because apple is trying to make the case that this device is supposed to be the future of computing. It's telling that you can't actually develop for the platform within the platform itself. If you are developing novel AR experiences why wouldn't you want to be building them in a fully 3d environment, with new tools that can take advantage of all that brings? Instead we are forced back into the world of 2d, which shows an unfortunate lack of conviction on Apple's part. If we are serious about this being the future of computing we need to build native tooling. This is a virtuous cycle, tools beget tools, but Apple needs to be willing to relinquish some control.
- voisin 3y ago
  > It's valid in this case because apple is trying to make the case that this device is supposed to be the future of computing. It's telling that you can't actually develop for the platform within the platform itself. Would you not have said the same thing about iPhone 1? It was absolutely the “future of computing” (whatever the hell that means) in terms of mobile ubiquity, but you could develop anything on the device itself at the time (or really, even today).
  - dwallin 3y ago
    An iphone and a laptop are both just 2d screens with input, the difference is one of just screen size and primary form of input. The Vision pro is an entirely different category of device. Both the form and nature of the display and controls are vastly different. The vision pro is a superset of a laptop but the reverse is not even close. If I'm building an AR or VR tool, I should be doing so in a 3d AR environment, anything else is obviously a substandard experience, removing options and fidelity for no gain.
jayd16 3y ago
They're relevant but not dominant in every sector they're in except maybe the watch, so I would certainly not call it decisively demonstrated.

georgewsinger 3y ago

Our critique isn't so much about Apple's locked down OS as much as it is "you won't be able to run powerhouse apps from macOS to get your more serious work done". We hope & expect consumers to love the Apple headset(!), because it seems better/more focused on productivity use cases than the gaming headsets currently on the market. But in order for it to "actually replace a laptop", bringing iPad/iPhone apps into VR isn't quite enough, in our opinion.

spacedcowboy 3y ago
You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? And you can (from reviews) read and interact with text on your phone, so typing on the keypad with an appropriate level of immersion seems feasible - hell maybe even with total immersion, there's a ways until they're actually launched... Given that this is a full-blown M2 on-board, I think relegating it to "just like an iPad" is a little lacking in foresight, but I guess we'll all see how it pans out...
- bodge5000 3y ago
  > You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? You can already do that with something like XReal Air for 10x less (both the price and the weight). > Given that this is a full-blown M2 on-board, I think relegating it to "just like an iPad" is a little lacking in foresight The ability to have multiple virtual monitors with a mac? Thats a game changer (potentially). The ability to run multiple virtual monitors with an iPad? Pretty cool I guess, not sure what I'd use them for though. It'd be nice for watching movies, but again, see above, XReal (and probably a load of others by now) already has that covered. Put it this way, theres a reason sidecar lets you use your ipad as a second display for your mac and not the other way around
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  There are iPads that also have a full-blown M2 on board and are still just like an iPad so it seems like a fair comparison.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  > You saw the "look at your Mac and the screen appears" bit, right ? I did but all I saw was a virtual mirror of the Mac's screen. Not apps. The mirror is the app, more like running a remote desktop app on the 3D world. I didn't see VS Code running on its own virtual window. I didn't see iTerm running on its own window, separate to VS Code's. I didn't see a Mac's Firefox running on its own window, separate to the other 2. Sure, you can run visionOS's Safari, and probably even visionOS's Firefox in the future, or their iPad counterparts, but they're not nearly as powerful as the desktop's. You can already mirror your Mac to an iPad. In fact, you can use the iPad as an extra screen for your Mac. In that sense, AVP is in fact not much more than an iPad with a spatial interface.
  - spacedcowboy 3y ago
    I'm reasonably certain that the team developing this have enough on their plate to not write their own custom apps just yet, and they're certainly not going to let 3rd parties close to it just yet. There is an App Store icon in the video when the "menu" comes into view. That's a pretty heavy implication that there's going to be native apps running on the thing.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      I 100% expect visionOS to have native apps. I never said anything in contrary.
  - treesciencebot 3y ago
    This is an amazing point. I was also thinking about the question in the parent, but reading this now makes me realize that unlimited monitors are nice but that's not what I would want for a truly immersive "spatial computing" experience.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Yeah exactly. I don't want to stream my Mac's screen. I want to stream individual apps. Better yet, I just want to run those apps on the device and be free of the Mac. Add to that the ability to connect to an actual display, and this device could in fact finally replace a MacBook.
- Auracle 3y ago
  One thing that’s super frustrating about this is that developing VR/AR apps right now kind of sucks. You do what you can to test functionality without the headset on because taking it off and on 200 times a day is awful. This product is in the position to make that all super streamlined, but it seems that it won’t be. To be fair, my experience is in games and non-gaming apps might not be as bad. Also, I don’t personally own a Mac. I have a PC, and while I might be willing to plop down the money for the Vision Pro if it worked completely standalone but I absolutely won’t get it and a Mac.
dylan604 3y ago
>"you won't be able to run powerhouse apps from macOS to get your more serious work done" why would you try to run a powerhouse app on a computer strapped to your face vs running it on the hardware it's designed to run on and share the screen of that system to the one strapped to your face? Just like they demonstrated being a key selling point. powerhouse apps tend to make the hardware run the fans from all of the heat being generated. no way would i want that near my face
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  cost, portability, better integration with the AR OS (as supported by the developers). SimulaVR do seem to agree with you though w.r.t strapping it to your face and have the compute tethered the same way vision pro has the battery tethered.
samora 3y ago
You are mistaken in seeing iOS frameworks as a limitation. It is an advantage! It is the natural fit for the eye tracking and hand gestures because those apps will work flawlessly with no change. You are also mistaken in thinking Mac OS can't work with Vision Pro, because it can. Apple has put a trojan horse in Vision Pro by giving us any number of screens we want to use with our Macs. In the future Apple will bundle Mac OS and iOS in Vision Pro. It is the ultimate evolution of computing. This is my prediction. Vision Pro will replace both the iPhone/iPad and Mac. All of it can coexist perfectly in Vision Pro. This is what you should do. Copy Apple. Make your headset work with Android. Allow Linux and Windows to also be able to work through the headset with existing computers, by providing virtual screens. In the future you can offer a version of your headset with either Linux or Windows, but Android must definitely be in the first version of your headset. This is the only chance you have.

conradev 3y ago

The critique is that iPads are less effective for serious work than Macs. Apple continually markets the iPad as a capable everything device, when it is less capable than a Mac, even though the iPad Pro shares the same SoC. Every professional I know who owns an iPad also owns a macOS/Linux/Windows computer. If an iPad is a computer replacement… then it should replace a computer.

msla 3y ago
I think you missed the point: You are to channel your frustration into those terms, so your complaints can be dismissed. Why else would they mention those things?
- conradev 3y ago
  from the article: > While a premium VR headset built over iOS apps is a step in the right direction, we worry it could seriously hinder the device's ability to serve as a true laptop replacement. This is because the iPhone/iPad iOS is more driven towards the passive consumption of information than it is maximally productive work. I was just agreeing with and rehashing the article

dwallin 3y ago

It's valid in this case because apple is trying to make the case that this device is supposed to be the future of computing. It's telling that you can't actually develop for the platform within the platform itself. If you are developing novel AR experiences why wouldn't you want to be building them in a fully 3d environment, with new tools that can take advantage of all that brings? Instead we are forced back into the world of 2d, which shows an unfortunate lack of conviction on Apple's part. If we are serious about this being the future of computing we need to build native tooling. This is a virtuous cycle, tools beget tools, but Apple needs to be willing to relinquish some control.

voisin 3y ago
> It's valid in this case because apple is trying to make the case that this device is supposed to be the future of computing. It's telling that you can't actually develop for the platform within the platform itself. Would you not have said the same thing about iPhone 1? It was absolutely the “future of computing” (whatever the hell that means) in terms of mobile ubiquity, but you could develop anything on the device itself at the time (or really, even today).
- dwallin 3y ago
  An iphone and a laptop are both just 2d screens with input, the difference is one of just screen size and primary form of input. The Vision pro is an entirely different category of device. Both the form and nature of the display and controls are vastly different. The vision pro is a superset of a laptop but the reverse is not even close. If I'm building an AR or VR tool, I should be doing so in a 3d AR environment, anything else is obviously a substandard experience, removing options and fidelity for no gain.

jayd16 3y ago

They're relevant but not dominant in every sector they're in except maybe the watch, so I would certainly not call it decisively demonstrated.