6 ms·

>Critique #1: Apple included almost no hard specs on the headset's visual capabilities (PPD or FOV). >Critique #2: The Vision Pro seems to be built on top of A

>Critique #1: Apple included almost no hard specs on the headset's visual capabilities (PPD or FOV). >Critique #2: The Vision Pro seems to be built on top of Apple's iPad/iPhone ecosystem, which could hinder it from becoming a true PC/laptop replacement. These are both indicators and flexes of Apple's strengths. Apple doesn't want to tell users what the hard specs are on their headset. Not because they're trying to deceive the user, but because they don't want the user to care. They don't want the experience to be hampered by comparisons to other products or considerations of "how real" the experience can be. They want it to be it's own experience. An experience where the conversation isn't ever "Which programs can I run on this..." or "how fast does it go?" because it's holistic. A big confirmation of this is how often Apple compares its products to their predecessors instead of competitor products.

foobiekr 3y ago
Apple is not publishing a bunch of details but what we know already means it will not be a viable monitor replacement for extended use. The same is true for SimulaVR and for the same reasons: eyestrain. Also, this -- https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/simula/png/Simula_unlimited_native_Linux_apps.png https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/simula/png/... -- is the "year of the linux desktop" of VR. I imagine someone wants that, but no.
- schaefer 3y ago
  > we know already means it will not be a viable monitor replacement for extended use. This opinion is deeply subjective. I have a Varjo Aero, and I can use it as a daily driver (for productivity), no problem. The Vison pro looks to be lighter... and so would have better ergonomics. Notice, I don't even mention eye strain... because I personally don't experience any.
  - georgewsinger 3y ago
    The Varjo Aero has the same PPD as the Simula One :] So if you are able to daily drive it for productivity, that's a good sign you would be able to do the same with our headset. The problem with the Varjo Aero is that's it's a cord-tethered headset which needs to be attached to a powerful GPU. It doesn't run Linux Desktop natively (nor even when attached to a host) since it doesn't have Linux support. So in our opinion it doesn't actually replace a laptop, which we're taking as the "holy grail" of VR computing.
    - schaefer 3y ago
      George, If Simula VR had been shipping on January of 2022, I would have ordered it over an Aero. If simulaVR were in stock and shipping today, I would sell my Aero at a loss and place an order. I honestly do have my fingers crossed that by the time the SumulaVR is in stock and shipping I still feel the same. right now the problem with SimulaVR is that I can not buy it.
- bbor 3y ago
  You're getting heavy downvotes but I'm curious: do you have a reason (ideally a citation) to say that eyestrain is inevitable? Do you think that applies to all professional XR workflows, or just this generation of headsets for some technical reason? Anecdotally I've worn the Oculus S for extended periods and didn't notice any eyestrain, but also "extended periods" obviously wasn't a full workday so can't be too confident yet.
  - foobiekr 3y ago
    Extended time fixed focus creates eyestrain. In a monitor environment, people look up, they look around, they look elsewhere, and so on, and even so monitors cause eye strain. This is not a controversial take. Yes, there are tech bros who will insist that this is all fine, but the actual feedback from the majority of the population is that extended wear of pretty much all VR helmets anyone has bothered to look at causes the same eyestrain issues. There are always people who will put up with discomfort or for whom the discomfort is relatively lower (or they are younger and it is less of an issue), but these products are not going to replace monitors. Resolution is not the only issue, just the one that is most notable when you first put the helmet on. In addition, the weight of the helmets is an issue. Extended wear is a problem and one of the few notable, repeated comments from the carefully-managed 30-minutes-max Apple Vision Pro demos is that the weight started to get annoying. Seated demos under 30 minutes. There's also VAC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence-accommodation_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence-accommodation_conflic... ) as an issue depending on the UI in use. I want VR to happen as much as anyone, but the Vision Pro is an entertainment-light device for media consumption with a nod for people who want to check their laptop (and I'm sure, eventually, their phone or tablet) while watching faux-bigscreen movies.
jdonaldson 3y ago
They have an amazing track record for this as well. I buy m2 processors because I know they're great. I don't even bother trying to figure out a comparison to Intel chips any more. I've done semiconductor research and used to obsess about stuff like this.
- awiejrliawjer 3y ago
  NGL M2 is incredible
- epolanski 3y ago
  The comparison only works in mobile. The M2 vs mobile Intel/AMD is indeed favorable for the M2 because it uses much less power. But in general, it's much more nuanced. I have both a desktop with a Ryzen 7700x and a mac book pro m2, my coworker has a 13900k and a m2 max, the performances aren't really always comparable. There's many tasks where you are looking at a much less capable machine. Compiling and IDE performances are still way better in general on x86 linux than a notebook macos. You may not care about that 0.5second more lag every time you save and EsLint reprocesses your entire file, and the watcher restarts some application after and you're looking at 5/6 seconds instead of a couple. I do. There's no doubt that Apple produced a great CPU, but when you get into considering costs and performance there's still a huge lag. There's no doubt that the crown on laptops is in Apple hands right now. That's not every use case out there.
epolanski 3y ago
I don't buy it, Apple very proudly shows the numbers when they can make them shine under a good light in comparisons. When they were trying to sell the new mac pros as AI/ML devices they underlined a lot the technical specs of those Macs. Or when they introduced Retina displays they all went into PPIs and pixel numbers. Or when they introduced M1s to show the performance and wattage boosts.
- gs17 3y ago
  Exactly. Didn't the same WWDC give us plenty of numbers (even if many were only relative) for the M2 Ultra?
  - krger 3y ago
    One main difference is that you could order a computer with an M2 Ultra last week, but you won't be able to order Reality Pro until next year. Apple doesn't talk about numbers until they finalize exactly what will be shipping.
  - foobiekr 3y ago
    Apple doesn't even tell you the clockspeed of their CPUs in their products. This is utterly not out of character at all. The only reason they talk about all the stuff in the M2 ultra is because they are beating up on Windows laptops.
dotnet00 3y ago
It's amazing how Apple fans manage to twist even glaring issues into some commentary on how differently Apple thinks.

foobiekr 3y ago

Apple is not publishing a bunch of details but what we know already means it will not be a viable monitor replacement for extended use. The same is true for SimulaVR and for the same reasons: eyestrain. Also, this -- https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/simula/png/Simula_unlimited_native_Linux_apps.png https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/simula/png/... -- is the "year of the linux desktop" of VR. I imagine someone wants that, but no.

schaefer 3y ago
> we know already means it will not be a viable monitor replacement for extended use. This opinion is deeply subjective. I have a Varjo Aero, and I can use it as a daily driver (for productivity), no problem. The Vison pro looks to be lighter... and so would have better ergonomics. Notice, I don't even mention eye strain... because I personally don't experience any.
- georgewsinger 3y ago
  The Varjo Aero has the same PPD as the Simula One :] So if you are able to daily drive it for productivity, that's a good sign you would be able to do the same with our headset. The problem with the Varjo Aero is that's it's a cord-tethered headset which needs to be attached to a powerful GPU. It doesn't run Linux Desktop natively (nor even when attached to a host) since it doesn't have Linux support. So in our opinion it doesn't actually replace a laptop, which we're taking as the "holy grail" of VR computing.
  - schaefer 3y ago
    George, If Simula VR had been shipping on January of 2022, I would have ordered it over an Aero. If simulaVR were in stock and shipping today, I would sell my Aero at a loss and place an order. I honestly do have my fingers crossed that by the time the SumulaVR is in stock and shipping I still feel the same. right now the problem with SimulaVR is that I can not buy it.
bbor 3y ago
You're getting heavy downvotes but I'm curious: do you have a reason (ideally a citation) to say that eyestrain is inevitable? Do you think that applies to all professional XR workflows, or just this generation of headsets for some technical reason? Anecdotally I've worn the Oculus S for extended periods and didn't notice any eyestrain, but also "extended periods" obviously wasn't a full workday so can't be too confident yet.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  Extended time fixed focus creates eyestrain. In a monitor environment, people look up, they look around, they look elsewhere, and so on, and even so monitors cause eye strain. This is not a controversial take. Yes, there are tech bros who will insist that this is all fine, but the actual feedback from the majority of the population is that extended wear of pretty much all VR helmets anyone has bothered to look at causes the same eyestrain issues. There are always people who will put up with discomfort or for whom the discomfort is relatively lower (or they are younger and it is less of an issue), but these products are not going to replace monitors. Resolution is not the only issue, just the one that is most notable when you first put the helmet on. In addition, the weight of the helmets is an issue. Extended wear is a problem and one of the few notable, repeated comments from the carefully-managed 30-minutes-max Apple Vision Pro demos is that the weight started to get annoying. Seated demos under 30 minutes. There's also VAC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence-accommodation_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence-accommodation_conflic... ) as an issue depending on the UI in use. I want VR to happen as much as anyone, but the Vision Pro is an entertainment-light device for media consumption with a nod for people who want to check their laptop (and I'm sure, eventually, their phone or tablet) while watching faux-bigscreen movies.

jdonaldson 3y ago

They have an amazing track record for this as well. I buy m2 processors because I know they're great. I don't even bother trying to figure out a comparison to Intel chips any more. I've done semiconductor research and used to obsess about stuff like this.

awiejrliawjer 3y ago
NGL M2 is incredible
epolanski 3y ago
The comparison only works in mobile. The M2 vs mobile Intel/AMD is indeed favorable for the M2 because it uses much less power. But in general, it's much more nuanced. I have both a desktop with a Ryzen 7700x and a mac book pro m2, my coworker has a 13900k and a m2 max, the performances aren't really always comparable. There's many tasks where you are looking at a much less capable machine. Compiling and IDE performances are still way better in general on x86 linux than a notebook macos. You may not care about that 0.5second more lag every time you save and EsLint reprocesses your entire file, and the watcher restarts some application after and you're looking at 5/6 seconds instead of a couple. I do. There's no doubt that Apple produced a great CPU, but when you get into considering costs and performance there's still a huge lag. There's no doubt that the crown on laptops is in Apple hands right now. That's not every use case out there.

epolanski 3y ago

I don't buy it, Apple very proudly shows the numbers when they can make them shine under a good light in comparisons. When they were trying to sell the new mac pros as AI/ML devices they underlined a lot the technical specs of those Macs. Or when they introduced Retina displays they all went into PPIs and pixel numbers. Or when they introduced M1s to show the performance and wattage boosts.

gs17 3y ago
Exactly. Didn't the same WWDC give us plenty of numbers (even if many were only relative) for the M2 Ultra?
- krger 3y ago
  One main difference is that you could order a computer with an M2 Ultra last week, but you won't be able to order Reality Pro until next year. Apple doesn't talk about numbers until they finalize exactly what will be shipping.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  Apple doesn't even tell you the clockspeed of their CPUs in their products. This is utterly not out of character at all. The only reason they talk about all the stuff in the M2 ultra is because they are beating up on Windows laptops.

dotnet00 3y ago

It's amazing how Apple fans manage to twist even glaring issues into some commentary on how differently Apple thinks.