8 ms·

The alternative being what?

mytailorisrich 3y ago
No heat pump? IMHO, the main reason heat pumps are pushed is that most countries are having big issues with their electricity production and grids. Indeed, the move away from ICE cars and gas at home means electricity production is struggling. Cynically: "Look we don't need to invest we can just tell people to install heat pumps". Here in the UK for many properties heat pumps are either very expensive to install or they destroy the small garden/patio people have, or both so I can see people trying their best to avoid them, quite reasonably so because there are not well suited.
- notyourwork 3y ago
  I don’t follow your logic at all. Sorry.
- OGWhales 3y ago
  Huh? The main reason heat pumps are being pushed is because they are extremely efficient, not as some kind of sacrifice that we are doing to protect the grid. There is no better option if we are moving away from gas at home. The only competitive alternative is gas powered heating. However, I believe it’s more energy efficient to use natural gas for electricity generation and use heat pumps for heating rather than piping gas to people’s homes and burning it there. The exception is when it’s so cold that heat pumps do not perform well (although modern heat pumps can work in very cold situations)
  - cesaref 3y ago
    The exception is for old housing stock which isn't well enough insulated to be heated by a heat pump, and there's huge amounts of single glazed, poorly insulated (by modern standards) housing around in the UK
    - notacoward 3y ago
      Doesn't that lack of insulation affect all heating and cooling technologies? Seems kind of orthogonal to me. Where insulation is poor, people - individually and/or through the government - absolutely should be investing first on improving it. But once that's done, we're back to the original question of what technology to use for heating or cooling the now-well-insulated space. Note that it's entirely possible e.g. for a furnace to have a greater capacity to heat a space while still being less efficient at it within any but the most extreme ranges.
- solardev 3y ago
  Invest in what instead of heat pumps? It's hard to understand what you're pushing for. Resistive electric heat (which would be less efficient and have a higher load on the grid, and your power bill too)? Non electrical heating (fossil fuels)? In the US there isn't a concerted push to disinvest in the grid for the heat pump lobby's sake. Our grid is old and frail and Texas is insane and California has way too much solar and not enough storage, but heat pumps aren't really a major factor there. And overall, isn't higher efficiency good for everyone (for costs, climate, noise) even if we do upgrade power grids and production? It shouldn't be an either/or but both.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Invest in the grid and electricity production so that the many people for whom heat pumps are not a practical option have an affordable solution. France used to push for all electric at home, with resistive electric heat because they had plenty of affordable electricity. I'm sure it's the same in countries with plenty of hydro. Now, here in the UK the grid is already maxed out. Renewable projects cannot go forward because they cannot connect to the grid. So the government is desperate, taking into account the bloodbath that's coming with EVs and that they want us to get rid of our gas boilers as well. Heat pumps minimise impact on grid and push a lot of the cost to people. I'm not saying that heat pumps should not be installed where a good fit, but in the real world there aren't in many situations and for many families's budgets. It's never black and white.
    - notacoward 3y ago
      > Now, here in the UK the grid is already maxed out. A maxed-out grid is an argument in favor of heat pumps, since they're more efficient than resistive - especially at the temperatures that prevail in the UK.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        Yes, except that they are impractical and unaffordable for many, and that the grid just be upgraded anyway (EVs, etc), as I wrote in all my comments. I am just saying that heat pumps are no panacea and are not always a practical/viable option so let's not create another sacred cow here.
- notacoward 3y ago
  > No heat pump? In places with mild climates, you might not need anything at all. If you're in a place where it gets hot, a heat pump is practically an exact drop-in replacement for an A/C unit except that it provides heat as well. In my area, you basically can't even buy a one-way A/C unit any more because it's so obviously inferior. If you're in a place where it doesn't get hot (or you've decided to forego cooling in summer), a heat pump is no more expensive, bulky, or noisy than a boiler/furnace setup. Some people don't notice because the old tech came with their house, but that doesn't make it actually good. Again, where I am gas/oil heating is "grandfathered in" for existing homes but forbidden for new construction. The only real competitor to heat pumps is resistive electric. That's cheap and easy to install, and quiet, but considerably less efficient (and does nothing for cooling). "I don't need/want what a heat pump provides" is not a particularly compelling point when most people do, and even the people who say that often change their tune when they try to sell their now-considered-deficient house.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Most people here in the UK don't find heat pumps practical or affordable. Again, nothing is black and white.. and commenters here seem to sugger tunnel vision syndrome.

No heat pump? IMHO, the main reason heat pumps are pushed is that most countries are having big issues with their electricity production and grids. Indeed, the move away from ICE cars and gas at home means electricity production is struggling. Cynically: "Look we don't need to invest we can just tell people to install heat pumps". Here in the UK for many properties heat pumps are either very expensive to install or they destroy the small garden/patio people have, or both so I can see people trying their best to avoid them, quite reasonably so because there are not well suited.

notyourwork 3y ago
I don’t follow your logic at all. Sorry.
OGWhales 3y ago
Huh? The main reason heat pumps are being pushed is because they are extremely efficient, not as some kind of sacrifice that we are doing to protect the grid. There is no better option if we are moving away from gas at home. The only competitive alternative is gas powered heating. However, I believe it’s more energy efficient to use natural gas for electricity generation and use heat pumps for heating rather than piping gas to people’s homes and burning it there. The exception is when it’s so cold that heat pumps do not perform well (although modern heat pumps can work in very cold situations)
- cesaref 3y ago
  The exception is for old housing stock which isn't well enough insulated to be heated by a heat pump, and there's huge amounts of single glazed, poorly insulated (by modern standards) housing around in the UK
  - notacoward 3y ago
    Doesn't that lack of insulation affect all heating and cooling technologies? Seems kind of orthogonal to me. Where insulation is poor, people - individually and/or through the government - absolutely should be investing first on improving it. But once that's done, we're back to the original question of what technology to use for heating or cooling the now-well-insulated space. Note that it's entirely possible e.g. for a furnace to have a greater capacity to heat a space while still being less efficient at it within any but the most extreme ranges.
solardev 3y ago
Invest in what instead of heat pumps? It's hard to understand what you're pushing for. Resistive electric heat (which would be less efficient and have a higher load on the grid, and your power bill too)? Non electrical heating (fossil fuels)? In the US there isn't a concerted push to disinvest in the grid for the heat pump lobby's sake. Our grid is old and frail and Texas is insane and California has way too much solar and not enough storage, but heat pumps aren't really a major factor there. And overall, isn't higher efficiency good for everyone (for costs, climate, noise) even if we do upgrade power grids and production? It shouldn't be an either/or but both.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Invest in the grid and electricity production so that the many people for whom heat pumps are not a practical option have an affordable solution. France used to push for all electric at home, with resistive electric heat because they had plenty of affordable electricity. I'm sure it's the same in countries with plenty of hydro. Now, here in the UK the grid is already maxed out. Renewable projects cannot go forward because they cannot connect to the grid. So the government is desperate, taking into account the bloodbath that's coming with EVs and that they want us to get rid of our gas boilers as well. Heat pumps minimise impact on grid and push a lot of the cost to people. I'm not saying that heat pumps should not be installed where a good fit, but in the real world there aren't in many situations and for many families's budgets. It's never black and white.
  - notacoward 3y ago
    > Now, here in the UK the grid is already maxed out. A maxed-out grid is an argument in favor of heat pumps, since they're more efficient than resistive - especially at the temperatures that prevail in the UK.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      Yes, except that they are impractical and unaffordable for many, and that the grid just be upgraded anyway (EVs, etc), as I wrote in all my comments. I am just saying that heat pumps are no panacea and are not always a practical/viable option so let's not create another sacred cow here.
notacoward 3y ago
> No heat pump? In places with mild climates, you might not need anything at all. If you're in a place where it gets hot, a heat pump is practically an exact drop-in replacement for an A/C unit except that it provides heat as well. In my area, you basically can't even buy a one-way A/C unit any more because it's so obviously inferior. If you're in a place where it doesn't get hot (or you've decided to forego cooling in summer), a heat pump is no more expensive, bulky, or noisy than a boiler/furnace setup. Some people don't notice because the old tech came with their house, but that doesn't make it actually good. Again, where I am gas/oil heating is "grandfathered in" for existing homes but forbidden for new construction. The only real competitor to heat pumps is resistive electric. That's cheap and easy to install, and quiet, but considerably less efficient (and does nothing for cooling). "I don't need/want what a heat pump provides" is not a particularly compelling point when most people do, and even the people who say that often change their tune when they try to sell their now-considered-deficient house.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Most people here in the UK don't find heat pumps practical or affordable. Again, nothing is black and white.. and commenters here seem to sugger tunnel vision syndrome.