23 ms·

Getting to know the right people (2022)

253 points by SenHeng 3y ago

PragmaticPulp 3y ago
Of the tips in this article, I think this one is simultaneously the most well-known and the most underrated: > Getting a job gets you a professional network, which you can try to turn into a friend network. Getting a job isn't enough to start building a network. You have to do well at that job, be a good person to work with, and step out of your comfort zone to meet new people. I've seen a growing number of people learn the hard way that your behavior in the final months of a job leaves a lasting impression. One of the most motivated engineer ladder-climbers I know was very good at interviewing and getting new jobs, but he developed a habit of burning bridges on the way out: After about a year at the company he'd gradually diminish his work output and spend 80% of his day searching for new jobs, interviewing, and negotiating bigger raises at his next job hob. This worked for a while, but after 4 or 5 rounds he had built a reputation for slacking off for a few months and then leaving companies. Word traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only hire him with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that had to be paid back if he left before 2-3 years. Eventually nobody well-connected wanted to hire him because they had heard so many stories about him underperforming and bailing at the 1-year mark, despite interviewing well and performing great in the first few months. He finally moved out of state to start over in a new network. What I'm saying is: The strongest networking you do might not feel like networking. It's years of accumulated reputation. Word travels and people check references. Reference checking felt like it was paused for a few years when everyone was hiring as fast as possible, but now I'm getting reference check calls/texts/DMs more than ever before. I've had mixed results with networking-focused activities. I've met some good people at networking events, but you have to actively filter out the loud professional networkers and seek out the other people like yourself. The best contacts are not always the loudest, most outgoing, most extroverted people at these events. In fact, some of those people are sharks who are only interested in networking as far as they can use you for leverage, clout, or your connections. Tread lightly.
- somesortofthing 3y ago
  > Word traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only hire him with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that had to be paid back if he left before 2-3 years. I've occasionally heard anecdotes like this but I have a hard time imagining how this kind of thing ever happens outside of very small population centers with less than ten tech employers. Unless he's some kind of executive where huge amounts of resources are devoted specifically to vetting and networking is the interview process, what incentive is there for people in charge of hiring to share such granular info with one another? Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech companies just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on employees they didn't like?
  - oofnik 3y ago
    > Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech companies just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on employees they didn't like? Yes. Source: family member who works in HR
    - tsunamifury 3y ago
      How, in FANG alone there are THOUSANDS of HR members that rotate in and out like a revolving door. They barely know eachother let alone any of the workers save a few executives they worked for. Don't believe this practically
      - blackbear_ 3y ago
        You took the statement too literally. Of course there is not a single whatsapp group, but hundreds of them. People working in HR have lots of friends who also work in HR, meet HR friends of their HR friends, they talk with each other, and so on.
  - jedberg 3y ago
    There is a lot of backchannel reference checks. If you're about to make an offer to someone and you're in HR, there's a really good chance that you have a friend in HR at their previous company. Or if you're a hiring manager there is a good chance you have a friend who is a manager. You send them a quick note for a backchannel reference check. It happens all the time.
Conscat 3y ago
> How do you make new friends? > How do you go to parties? > How do you find someone to date? These are actually impossible.
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  Yes, with that attitude, entirely impossible. People are inverted magnets. Positive attitudes attract positive people. Negative attitudes repel.
- lurker919 3y ago
  This is for what I'd pay >50% of my NW to startups to solve for me
getmeinrn 3y ago
Networking is an enormous time sink, where 95% of your interactions are unfruitful, but you have to pretend to be enjoying them anyways. Maybe you find one connection that is worthwhile, and of that one connection, you have to carefully nurture it, without giving off the "this is the one important connection" vibes, because people can smell that a mile away. And sometimes that connection evaporates under mysterious causes. It's pointless. I truly can't justify wasting my time doing it when I could be producing things that anonymous people appreciate and rely on. I'd rather serve them than waste my time playing delicate social/power games with people in my proximity that I don't even relate to. At least when you serve anonymous people, they're generally honest about the quality of your work. You can't rely on anyone in these networks to be honest with you like an anonymous person can.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Networking isn't necessarily and generally shouldn't be about formal NETWORKING events and doing "delicate social/power games" as you put it. You just work with people, talk to them at conferences, join activity groups that you're interested in, etc. Every job I've had since grad school (admittedly not a lot) has come through people I've known professionally in some capacity.
  - getmeinrn 3y ago
    As a counter point, only 1 of the 5 tech jobs in my career have come through a connection. It can be done, and in the long run I think it's better for personal and professional growth to get opportunities that way. Not to mention that every time you get an opportunity through a connection, you're potentially screwing over someone else more qualified, without a connection.
    - kevstev 3y ago
      I think the key point here is that there is "networking" as in making friends with people you spend meaningful time with vs "Networking" in the sense of going to parties or meetups in hopes of shaking hands with and BSing with someone for 5 minutes and linking in with them- and this seems to be the type that most push. Most of the important networking happens naturally and is never a forced thing. I worked with a group about 20 years ago now, doing some stuff that was groundbreaking and we all still keep in touch and will absolutely vouch for one another and get each other jobs if we need to, but not once did I ever think about my time with them as networking. Same with some other jobs as well. But that DBA guy on another team that I was constantly having to pull teeth with to get any work out of that sent me a linkedin request? Its probably better for him that I forget his name and give him a second chance then remember how mediocre I felt he was. I have been to conferences, and spoken at my share of them, and there are always "Networking" events around these, and even when I was actively hiring and looking around the room- with something to offer!- none of these resulted in any meaningful or long lasting relationships. Yes, having a network is important. But the way to build it is to earn the trust, respect, and friendship of those around you. I mean I guess you can push this along a bit by going to happy hour and trying to bond a bit, but networking to me is 95% an organic thing and not something you should force, especially in tech. I guess a caveat to that is that some people have to- and should- work to be generally likable. I have known some very smart people I would really prefer to never have to work with again.
arbuge 3y ago
Back when I needed to hire a specialized lawyer several years ago, the way I solved that was interviewing all the local lawyers in that area I could find. One of the questions was always who they'd hire for this case if they couldn't hire themselves. You build a picture that way. Doesn't work in all cases of course. Plumbers would probably think that's weird.
tycho-newman 3y ago
> Many networks are Not For People Like You - you're the wrong race, class, or gender. You didn't go to the right schools. Your family's ancestors didn't subjugate the right people three generations back along with the other members of the network. Or maybe you're just too weird and the people in the network don't want to put up with that. Some networks are just exclusive and nothing you can do will gain you access to them. As much ink as we spill on the loneliness epidemic, there's something to be said about an atomized society where surviving, and in a more ideal world thriving, does not depend on the quality the network the birth lottery gave you, or the one you are confined you in by centuries of prejudice. I'll speak for myself; I've had really bad experiences with in-groups of all kinds - especially kinship groups - that make me suspicious of networks. I'm glad that my ability to feed myself isn't tied to any specific in-group/network. Instead, it relies on a global capitalist network that can ship bananas from Central America and sell them to me for $0.79 a pound. All of this labor done by people who I will never meet, but rely on completely for my survival. If it weren't for the fact that this vast global network didn't rest on rapine exploitation, I'd say we were on to something. But alas, this monument to greed that enables my misanthropy is not humane. So perhaps to create a more humane world, I should develop the ability to be vulnerable with other people. No. No! Atoms or t h e v o i d !
- ambicapter 3y ago
  The ability to be vulnerable with other people is also the ability to weather any possible damage incurred, so I would consider it a beneficial ability to develop for your own sake.
  - tycho-newman 3y ago
    I don’t want to weather damage. I want to glide through life wrapped in privilege, then die in a warm bed.
juancn 3y ago
"Making friends on Twitter is much easier than making friends offline." I find the opposite is true for me. I don't quite get how to connect on Twitter, but I have no problem making friends offline.
- thomasjudge 3y ago
  Just start reading & commenting on other people's posts. Don't be an asshole. You'll get more comfortable over time.
  - juancn 3y ago
    I don't use twitter that much, I can't really figure out what's it for. I have the account, but check it maybe once a month.
turtledragonfly 3y ago
I liked the postscript: Not really sure why this piece was abandoned. I think it was too large and I didn't quite know what I was building up to, partially because I was theorising about a problem that I haven't had a huge amount of success with personally. In particular because I liked the article, and I'm glad they published it even though it wasn't finished and had some (acknowledged) missing bits. There are a lot of hollow articles out there which look polished, and there are a lot of un-polished articles (or even un-published) that are actually good, and I for one would like to see more of the latter. It's good, and brave, to publish something that's a little unfinished or scattered or doesn't seem to have a Final Point being made. There can still be good nuggets inside, even though it invites criticism from the peanut gallery (not the fine folks on HN of course, but just in general).
- la64710 3y ago
  Monetize good networks …
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
A strategy I've found most recently is to take something you're good at and make a spectacle of yourself. The ones that find you are the networkers. Presumably they can then introduce you to people who are skilled in ways that you aren't (i.e. domains you're not capable of making a spectacle in).
- uoaei 3y ago
  Actually this is very key. Knowing someone who wants to be, or otherwise excels at being, the center of a huge network, is a great resource. The trust barrier is lowered during new introductions to their connections by virtue of the person introducing you, so making genuine connections is a lot easier. Otherwise it feels like that weird kind of forced interaction that usually ends with standing there in silence for a while.
- munificent 3y ago
  Absolutely. The classic social success for an introvert is to be adopted by a well-meaning extrovert. This is a mutually beneficial relationship because introverts are often just as interesting and valuable friends as extroverts are, but have less time competition from other friends. So the introvert gets someone who will help maintain their network, and the extrovert gets a good friend with relatively greater time availability.
- gen220 3y ago
  I've heard this advice summed up as "make yourself a beacon". i.e. just start talking in a public square. If you talk long enough, you'll find people who want to talk about the same thing, and they'll introduce you to their friends. IME it works pretty well, and with the internet, it's never been easier.
deleted 3y ago
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Animats 3y ago
Depends on what you want. Do you really need a good plumber? The plumber you need to fix a leaky faucet is completely different from the plumber you need for an upgrade of hot-water delivery in a high-rise building that's putting in an upper floor restaurant. Most plumbers can do the former. Few can do the latter well. If you can frame that question and ask it to someone in an adjacent business, such as a landlord, you might get a good answer. That's a useful strategy. If you need a good plumber, ask someone who buys a lot of plumbing services.
Tade0 3y ago
I love the writing style in this piece. Feels a lot like some kind of transcript from a talk. Anyway, in my household it's my SO who handles the networking - she's brilliant at this and spent the last few years creating her network from scratch after we moved to this city. I get to tag along as the "neighborhood IT guy". Meanwhile, after over a decade in this industry and scooping up contacts from each organization I've been to, as I recently discovered whilst trying to lubricate the relationship between a friend of mine and a prospective employer, I can achieve precisely dick with the network that I have. One thing that naturally works to her advantage is giving off an aura of the least threatening person in the world. People just open up to her. Unfortunately this is not replicable.
- ambicapter 3y ago
  > spent the last few years This is key I think. I moved abroad for 5-ish months and I only started to have people I could call on to do something (sometimes) towards the very end.
tsunamifury 3y ago
After being laid off from FANG, I feel this essay painfully. One things I've learned is that people in FANG companies are a VERY SPECIAL breed and tend to only have connections in other FANG companies and they are next to useless in the real world. So when things are going well FANG network helps, but when they are going badly like now -- their value from a job perspective is nearly useless. They have hyper narrow network and experience that applies almost entirely to FANG culture, scale and goals. They have very very few real money connections, like VCs etc, and really haven't built much reputation there since they have been with FANG their entire career. They also have a certain enui that really is entirely about "I can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I don't believe I can function anywhere else." It's a bizarre situation. But fortunately I came across a 'hyper node' (people who just happen to have hundreds of high quality connections) and she helped us get to funding conversations and even deep inside some competitors to learn whats going on. So lesson is of me, you might not need the network, but it do need to know the person that does!
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Yes. After leaving Google it took me a number of months to give my head a shake and start restoring old connections and networking habits from before I got stuck there. Google at least is a bit of an echo chamber, and company policies around external open source contribution, etc. plus the arrogant internal engineering culture tends to de-emphasize networks and approaches from the outside. I imagine this is common across the SV BigCorps.
  - moneywoes 3y ago
    As someone needing to up their networking game, what are these habits?
- mucle6 3y ago
  "I can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I don't believe I can function anywhere else." I relate with this so much. FANG pays a lot and doesn't work you that hard so they make it so you have to really want to leave to leave
Dowwie 3y ago
Did they find a good plumber using their sophisticated methodology?
- qup 3y ago
  Few remain, but they do exist. I once had a drain blockage that my guy kept messing with and couldn't get out. He called a friend with a bigger jetter. When that didn't break it out, and after about 3 days of futzing around with their ideas, they called this other guy. He was the good plumber. He showed up, and without getting his hands dirty, diagnosed the problem, collected a fee, and left in about an hour. (Some crew had laid fiber cable, drilled through the drain pipe, and created a blockage. The good plumber called the company who did it, who got their own crew to fix it.) So I guess the moral of my story is yeah, ask a plumber for a good plumber.
gen220 3y ago
This is a nice angle on bootstrapping Social Capital [1]. There's been much ink spilt on the "decline of social capital" in the developed world in the last few decades [e.g. 2]. One interesting implication of all this is that we seem increasingly complacent with depending on private companies and social welfare to fill in the gaps that were previously filled by our "village", so to speak. In a densely-connected network with lots of social capital, many companies/programs don't make much sense. The company might be able to provide the service (food prep/delivery, laundry, transportation, home maintenance, health care services) more "efficiently" and at less "cost", but they carry an opportunity cost of failing to accrue of social capital. From that lens, you can view these companies as a kind of tax on social capital. They accrue wealth at the expense of our networks. And we rejoice, because we save a marginal 10 cents on the dollar, which we reinvest in equity of the same companies that tax our social capital. I don't intend to apply any morals or draw any conclusions, it's just a thought-provoking way of looking at startups, these days, this theme of "profiting from the eroding fabric of american society". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
denton-scratch 3y ago
This resonates. I have a really good electrician on my contacts list. He's an individual, not a gang; he's really good, and takes all the annual training and then some; and his client list includes some very classy organisations. But he can't recommend a builder to me. Nor a plumber; but I have an OK plumber. It's a firm, not an individual, and I've had people rock up that were rather arrogant. But nobody incompetent has turned up. Oh, and they're pricey. But they can't recommend a builder to me either. People have told me to use a service such as TrustaTrader. But I don't trust them; they take payment for listing.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  Drive up to job sites and ask the subs there who they are contracting for and if they like them. Network from there.
- nsvd 3y ago
  As a surveyor, every builder I've dealt with has been sketchy. There are similar incentives with used car salesman, etc. Good luck.
  - moneywoes 3y ago
    Can you elaborate on those incentives please
dahwolf 3y ago
I once was at a conference with my (former) boss where I got an inside peek at how a professional networker goes about it. The conference sessions had ended, flowing into the evening program which pretty much was the bar. Just before heading into it, she shared a paper note with me. It had a list of persons to talk to, for how long, the ice breaker, the excuse to exit the conversation and move to the next one, the importance of each target. Not knowing anybody at the conference, I just sat at the end of the bar, had some light "conversation by proximity" but mostly watched her execute the networking plan. To the casual and unknowing observer, a cheerful social butterfly "happens" to bump into random characters but I knew more. The only visual clue was her eyes shooting across the room and her watch any time her current conversation partner looked away for a second. Scanning for prey. I bet that as she returned home, she updated that massive network diagram in her garage to update the weights and other attributes. Whilst you might just call this clever professional behavior, I found it chilling. Engineered, not genuine, "working" people to get what you need. I wonder if normalizing that bleeds into personal relationships. Does it work though? Hell yes it does.
- dnedic 3y ago
  This feels extremely weird to read as someone naiively approaching networking where I actually want to talk to people, not just their professional side. On the other hand it might even be suboptimal in the long run because when you hire or partner with someone, you don't just hire their knowledge or expirience, you hire their personality, drive and creativity.
  - dahwolf 3y ago
    It came across as quite cold-hearted to me. But you don't have to take it that far. In particular the learning can be that you can somewhat engineer a conversation by preparing it well.
    - solarmist 3y ago
      How the heck did she learn details like “he’s into studying fungi”? This goes beyond basic research into a person.
totallywrong 3y ago
I think networking is way overrated since there's Linkedin. Unless you need very specific contacts or something, recruiters will reach out and about 10% will have great roles. Sure, a direct connection might get you an opportunity faster, but for people like me who aren't naturally inclined to do so, the work of nurturing a network probably offsets the potential missed opportunities.
globalnode 3y ago
just as well i dont like people and thus dont have to worry about any of this
moneywoes 3y ago
Sounds like a MLM tbh but I get it. Networks are valuable Anyone familiar with any? I know he said not to solicit in groups but I’m into entrepreneurship tech would love to know any groups especially bootstrapping ( and all the marketing sales associated).
sacnoradhq 3y ago
The 0->1 problem is the irreducible problem. Network effects amplify like a "differential equation" or virtuous circle: proportional to the "amount" (quality) of people already present. One modern problem is that there are too many what I call "overpaid useless people": office workers with one and only one ability who are complacent and fail to enrich themselves in hobbies or professional development, and generally lack curiosity and don't read books. They also tend to be consumers not creators, and avoid volunteering for anything beyond themselves by feigning or actual incapability. Then there are the people who play video games, do drugs, immaturity, lack life experience, or generally seek to escape their lives rather than use their time constructively. People with their priorities out of order. This is part of the general bucket of liability if they need and take more than they offer. A third problem is most people these days keep others at a distance and avoid making friends for whatever reason: they either don't know how to start, maintain, or they avoid relationships with others. It's also a waste to be pro-social if the other party refuses to carry their side of the relationship: again, consumer mentality waiting around for others to put in the work for them.
thomasjudge 3y ago
Realtors are often good sources of info on contractors and trades
motohagiography 3y ago
Interesting, but the author is still sounding it out. Highly recommend Stanford prof Jeffery Pfeffer's "Power: Why some people have it...." book. The essential idea is that each field has a weighted triad of Performance, Credentials, and Relationships. Elite networks typically index on the latter two, and ascendant networks index on the first and last. I have spent a great deal of time in prestigious places, and I'm always sympathetic to the disappointment of people who have worked so hard to finally arrive there, only to be seated with me at the end of it after all their trouble. It's absurd. I'd say, why network when you can conquer and prevail? Being climby just means being irritating to progressively more powerful people. There is always a cluster of people around the powerful who try to be gatekeepers and pretenders. Their esteem has no value outside mediocre aspirations. Sure, there are careers to be made as mendicants, but that's what banking and politics are for. Tech is for improving the lives of others and solving problems as an honest service. Unless you are finding customers to make something they want, networking is inferior with a weak upside, imo.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  As someone with aspirations to do what you’re suggesting, how does one find these customers without networking?
zephrx1111 3y ago
There is a thing called sampling.
hknmtt 3y ago
reads like a linkedin ad :D
SenHeng 3y ago
I chanced upon this article and found it thought provoking. I'm essentially starting from zero, as I moved from the big city into a rural mountain area 2 years ago by myself and only know a handful of people. So I've been wondering what was a good way to bootstrap a social network for someone that's just awkward around strangers. I also don't have family in this country. Things I've tried. Joining local sports groups, am told they're full because of too many new members lately. Working out at the local gym, this was actually how I met my first friend. I probably should go more often but I wanted to try out another gym. Going to local events, flea markets, etc. I see people I know and greet them, but they're usually already with other people and it's awkward interrupting them. I generally stick around and chat for a few minutes, then I just leave because it's just weird forcing myself into a group. Work out of a co-working space once a week. Took a bit of time to find the right venue. Most of the places I've been to, people stick to themselves. Finally found one where there's some kind of community. As an off shoot of the above, I'm looking for a gym near the co-working area so I have less excuses not to go.
- groby_b 3y ago
  > am told they're full because of too many new members lately. This is good. This is a group that works well.They likely can give advice on where to ask, and whom to avoid. "Aww, I would've loved to play with you. Sorry that didn't work out - do you have recommendations where I could look?" is a good request. > I generally stick around and chat for a few minutes, then I just leave because it's just weird forcing myself into a group. The chance that you are the only singleton is small - find the other ones, talk to them. But also, talk to people about their interest. E.g. on the flea market "Hey, that's such a gorgeous set of drawers you're selling, really admire it, bummer I can't make space" gives them an opportunity to tell you a story. (Most people like telling stories about themselves. Give them the space to tell you that story. Yes, both of these are freaking scary. (Well, they are to me, at least). But they are a good way to form at least a tenuous connection. And next time you see them, you have somebody you know. Especially in rural areas, folks often have deep networks and are roping you in once they have ascertained you are "safe" for group consumption. (Downside: Some of these deep networks in rural areas are super-cliquish. I've lived in a place that talked about people as "the new folks" when they moved there 20 years ago. You can become surface friends, but deep friendship in those places takes forever. Find the other "new folks")
nebben64 3y ago
Thank you for posting this, one of the best insights I've read regarding this type of problem.

253 points by SenHeng 3y ago

Of the tips in this article, I think this one is simultaneously the most well-known and the most underrated: > Getting a job gets you a professional network, which you can try to turn into a friend network. Getting a job isn't enough to start building a network. You have to do well at that job, be a good person to work with, and step out of your comfort zone to meet new people. I've seen a growing number of people learn the hard way that your behavior in the final months of a job leaves a lasting impression. One of the most motivated engineer ladder-climbers I know was very good at interviewing and getting new jobs, but he developed a habit of burning bridges on the way out: After about a year at the company he'd gradually diminish his work output and spend 80% of his day searching for new jobs, interviewing, and negotiating bigger raises at his next job hob. This worked for a while, but after 4 or 5 rounds he had built a reputation for slacking off for a few months and then leaving companies. Word traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only hire him with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that had to be paid back if he left before 2-3 years. Eventually nobody well-connected wanted to hire him because they had heard so many stories about him underperforming and bailing at the 1-year mark, despite interviewing well and performing great in the first few months. He finally moved out of state to start over in a new network. What I'm saying is: The strongest networking you do might not feel like networking. It's years of accumulated reputation. Word travels and people check references. Reference checking felt like it was paused for a few years when everyone was hiring as fast as possible, but now I'm getting reference check calls/texts/DMs more than ever before. I've had mixed results with networking-focused activities. I've met some good people at networking events, but you have to actively filter out the loud professional networkers and seek out the other people like yourself. The best contacts are not always the loudest, most outgoing, most extroverted people at these events. In fact, some of those people are sharks who are only interested in networking as far as they can use you for leverage, clout, or your connections. Tread lightly.

somesortofthing 3y ago
> Word traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only hire him with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that had to be paid back if he left before 2-3 years. I've occasionally heard anecdotes like this but I have a hard time imagining how this kind of thing ever happens outside of very small population centers with less than ten tech employers. Unless he's some kind of executive where huge amounts of resources are devoted specifically to vetting and networking is the interview process, what incentive is there for people in charge of hiring to share such granular info with one another? Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech companies just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on employees they didn't like?
- oofnik 3y ago
  > Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech companies just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on employees they didn't like? Yes. Source: family member who works in HR
  - tsunamifury 3y ago
    How, in FANG alone there are THOUSANDS of HR members that rotate in and out like a revolving door. They barely know eachother let alone any of the workers save a few executives they worked for. Don't believe this practically
    - blackbear_ 3y ago
      You took the statement too literally. Of course there is not a single whatsapp group, but hundreds of them. People working in HR have lots of friends who also work in HR, meet HR friends of their HR friends, they talk with each other, and so on.
- jedberg 3y ago
  There is a lot of backchannel reference checks. If you're about to make an offer to someone and you're in HR, there's a really good chance that you have a friend in HR at their previous company. Or if you're a hiring manager there is a good chance you have a friend who is a manager. You send them a quick note for a backchannel reference check. It happens all the time.

Conscat 3y ago

> How do you make new friends? > How do you go to parties? > How do you find someone to date? These are actually impossible.

pizzafeelsright 3y ago
Yes, with that attitude, entirely impossible. People are inverted magnets. Positive attitudes attract positive people. Negative attitudes repel.
lurker919 3y ago
This is for what I'd pay >50% of my NW to startups to solve for me

getmeinrn 3y ago

Networking is an enormous time sink, where 95% of your interactions are unfruitful, but you have to pretend to be enjoying them anyways. Maybe you find one connection that is worthwhile, and of that one connection, you have to carefully nurture it, without giving off the "this is the one important connection" vibes, because people can smell that a mile away. And sometimes that connection evaporates under mysterious causes. It's pointless. I truly can't justify wasting my time doing it when I could be producing things that anonymous people appreciate and rely on. I'd rather serve them than waste my time playing delicate social/power games with people in my proximity that I don't even relate to. At least when you serve anonymous people, they're generally honest about the quality of your work. You can't rely on anyone in these networks to be honest with you like an anonymous person can.

ghaff 3y ago
Networking isn't necessarily and generally shouldn't be about formal NETWORKING events and doing "delicate social/power games" as you put it. You just work with people, talk to them at conferences, join activity groups that you're interested in, etc. Every job I've had since grad school (admittedly not a lot) has come through people I've known professionally in some capacity.
- getmeinrn 3y ago
  As a counter point, only 1 of the 5 tech jobs in my career have come through a connection. It can be done, and in the long run I think it's better for personal and professional growth to get opportunities that way. Not to mention that every time you get an opportunity through a connection, you're potentially screwing over someone else more qualified, without a connection.
  - kevstev 3y ago
    I think the key point here is that there is "networking" as in making friends with people you spend meaningful time with vs "Networking" in the sense of going to parties or meetups in hopes of shaking hands with and BSing with someone for 5 minutes and linking in with them- and this seems to be the type that most push. Most of the important networking happens naturally and is never a forced thing. I worked with a group about 20 years ago now, doing some stuff that was groundbreaking and we all still keep in touch and will absolutely vouch for one another and get each other jobs if we need to, but not once did I ever think about my time with them as networking. Same with some other jobs as well. But that DBA guy on another team that I was constantly having to pull teeth with to get any work out of that sent me a linkedin request? Its probably better for him that I forget his name and give him a second chance then remember how mediocre I felt he was. I have been to conferences, and spoken at my share of them, and there are always "Networking" events around these, and even when I was actively hiring and looking around the room- with something to offer!- none of these resulted in any meaningful or long lasting relationships. Yes, having a network is important. But the way to build it is to earn the trust, respect, and friendship of those around you. I mean I guess you can push this along a bit by going to happy hour and trying to bond a bit, but networking to me is 95% an organic thing and not something you should force, especially in tech. I guess a caveat to that is that some people have to- and should- work to be generally likable. I have known some very smart people I would really prefer to never have to work with again.

arbuge 3y ago

Back when I needed to hire a specialized lawyer several years ago, the way I solved that was interviewing all the local lawyers in that area I could find. One of the questions was always who they'd hire for this case if they couldn't hire themselves. You build a picture that way. Doesn't work in all cases of course. Plumbers would probably think that's weird.

tycho-newman 3y ago

> Many networks are Not For People Like You - you're the wrong race, class, or gender. You didn't go to the right schools. Your family's ancestors didn't subjugate the right people three generations back along with the other members of the network. Or maybe you're just too weird and the people in the network don't want to put up with that. Some networks are just exclusive and nothing you can do will gain you access to them. As much ink as we spill on the loneliness epidemic, there's something to be said about an atomized society where surviving, and in a more ideal world thriving, does not depend on the quality the network the birth lottery gave you, or the one you are confined you in by centuries of prejudice. I'll speak for myself; I've had really bad experiences with in-groups of all kinds - especially kinship groups - that make me suspicious of networks. I'm glad that my ability to feed myself isn't tied to any specific in-group/network. Instead, it relies on a global capitalist network that can ship bananas from Central America and sell them to me for $0.79 a pound. All of this labor done by people who I will never meet, but rely on completely for my survival. If it weren't for the fact that this vast global network didn't rest on rapine exploitation, I'd say we were on to something. But alas, this monument to greed that enables my misanthropy is not humane. So perhaps to create a more humane world, I should develop the ability to be vulnerable with other people. No. No! Atoms or t h e v o i d !

ambicapter 3y ago
The ability to be vulnerable with other people is also the ability to weather any possible damage incurred, so I would consider it a beneficial ability to develop for your own sake.
- tycho-newman 3y ago
  I don’t want to weather damage. I want to glide through life wrapped in privilege, then die in a warm bed.

juancn 3y ago

"Making friends on Twitter is much easier than making friends offline." I find the opposite is true for me. I don't quite get how to connect on Twitter, but I have no problem making friends offline.

thomasjudge 3y ago
Just start reading & commenting on other people's posts. Don't be an asshole. You'll get more comfortable over time.
- juancn 3y ago
  I don't use twitter that much, I can't really figure out what's it for. I have the account, but check it maybe once a month.

turtledragonfly 3y ago

I liked the postscript: Not really sure why this piece was abandoned. I think it was too large and I didn't quite know what I was building up to, partially because I was theorising about a problem that I haven't had a huge amount of success with personally. In particular because I liked the article, and I'm glad they published it even though it wasn't finished and had some (acknowledged) missing bits. There are a lot of hollow articles out there which look polished, and there are a lot of un-polished articles (or even un-published) that are actually good, and I for one would like to see more of the latter. It's good, and brave, to publish something that's a little unfinished or scattered or doesn't seem to have a Final Point being made. There can still be good nuggets inside, even though it invites criticism from the peanut gallery (not the fine folks on HN of course, but just in general).

la64710 3y ago
Monetize good networks …

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

A strategy I've found most recently is to take something you're good at and make a spectacle of yourself. The ones that find you are the networkers. Presumably they can then introduce you to people who are skilled in ways that you aren't (i.e. domains you're not capable of making a spectacle in).

uoaei 3y ago
Actually this is very key. Knowing someone who wants to be, or otherwise excels at being, the center of a huge network, is a great resource. The trust barrier is lowered during new introductions to their connections by virtue of the person introducing you, so making genuine connections is a lot easier. Otherwise it feels like that weird kind of forced interaction that usually ends with standing there in silence for a while.
munificent 3y ago
Absolutely. The classic social success for an introvert is to be adopted by a well-meaning extrovert. This is a mutually beneficial relationship because introverts are often just as interesting and valuable friends as extroverts are, but have less time competition from other friends. So the introvert gets someone who will help maintain their network, and the extrovert gets a good friend with relatively greater time availability.
gen220 3y ago
I've heard this advice summed up as "make yourself a beacon". i.e. just start talking in a public square. If you talk long enough, you'll find people who want to talk about the same thing, and they'll introduce you to their friends. IME it works pretty well, and with the internet, it's never been easier.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Animats 3y ago

Depends on what you want. Do you really need a good plumber? The plumber you need to fix a leaky faucet is completely different from the plumber you need for an upgrade of hot-water delivery in a high-rise building that's putting in an upper floor restaurant. Most plumbers can do the former. Few can do the latter well. If you can frame that question and ask it to someone in an adjacent business, such as a landlord, you might get a good answer. That's a useful strategy. If you need a good plumber, ask someone who buys a lot of plumbing services.

Tade0 3y ago

I love the writing style in this piece. Feels a lot like some kind of transcript from a talk. Anyway, in my household it's my SO who handles the networking - she's brilliant at this and spent the last few years creating her network from scratch after we moved to this city. I get to tag along as the "neighborhood IT guy". Meanwhile, after over a decade in this industry and scooping up contacts from each organization I've been to, as I recently discovered whilst trying to lubricate the relationship between a friend of mine and a prospective employer, I can achieve precisely dick with the network that I have. One thing that naturally works to her advantage is giving off an aura of the least threatening person in the world. People just open up to her. Unfortunately this is not replicable.

ambicapter 3y ago
> spent the last few years This is key I think. I moved abroad for 5-ish months and I only started to have people I could call on to do something (sometimes) towards the very end.

tsunamifury 3y ago

After being laid off from FANG, I feel this essay painfully. One things I've learned is that people in FANG companies are a VERY SPECIAL breed and tend to only have connections in other FANG companies and they are next to useless in the real world. So when things are going well FANG network helps, but when they are going badly like now -- their value from a job perspective is nearly useless. They have hyper narrow network and experience that applies almost entirely to FANG culture, scale and goals. They have very very few real money connections, like VCs etc, and really haven't built much reputation there since they have been with FANG their entire career. They also have a certain enui that really is entirely about "I can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I don't believe I can function anywhere else." It's a bizarre situation. But fortunately I came across a 'hyper node' (people who just happen to have hundreds of high quality connections) and she helped us get to funding conversations and even deep inside some competitors to learn whats going on. So lesson is of me, you might not need the network, but it do need to know the person that does!

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Yes. After leaving Google it took me a number of months to give my head a shake and start restoring old connections and networking habits from before I got stuck there. Google at least is a bit of an echo chamber, and company policies around external open source contribution, etc. plus the arrogant internal engineering culture tends to de-emphasize networks and approaches from the outside. I imagine this is common across the SV BigCorps.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  As someone needing to up their networking game, what are these habits?
mucle6 3y ago
"I can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I don't believe I can function anywhere else." I relate with this so much. FANG pays a lot and doesn't work you that hard so they make it so you have to really want to leave to leave

Dowwie 3y ago

Did they find a good plumber using their sophisticated methodology?

qup 3y ago
Few remain, but they do exist. I once had a drain blockage that my guy kept messing with and couldn't get out. He called a friend with a bigger jetter. When that didn't break it out, and after about 3 days of futzing around with their ideas, they called this other guy. He was the good plumber. He showed up, and without getting his hands dirty, diagnosed the problem, collected a fee, and left in about an hour. (Some crew had laid fiber cable, drilled through the drain pipe, and created a blockage. The good plumber called the company who did it, who got their own crew to fix it.) So I guess the moral of my story is yeah, ask a plumber for a good plumber.

gen220 3y ago

This is a nice angle on bootstrapping Social Capital [1]. There's been much ink spilt on the "decline of social capital" in the developed world in the last few decades [e.g. 2]. One interesting implication of all this is that we seem increasingly complacent with depending on private companies and social welfare to fill in the gaps that were previously filled by our "village", so to speak. In a densely-connected network with lots of social capital, many companies/programs don't make much sense. The company might be able to provide the service (food prep/delivery, laundry, transportation, home maintenance, health care services) more "efficiently" and at less "cost", but they carry an opportunity cost of failing to accrue of social capital. From that lens, you can view these companies as a kind of tax on social capital. They accrue wealth at the expense of our networks. And we rejoice, because we save a marginal 10 cents on the dollar, which we reinvest in equity of the same companies that tax our social capital. I don't intend to apply any morals or draw any conclusions, it's just a thought-provoking way of looking at startups, these days, this theme of "profiting from the eroding fabric of american society". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone

denton-scratch 3y ago

This resonates. I have a really good electrician on my contacts list. He's an individual, not a gang; he's really good, and takes all the annual training and then some; and his client list includes some very classy organisations. But he can't recommend a builder to me. Nor a plumber; but I have an OK plumber. It's a firm, not an individual, and I've had people rock up that were rather arrogant. But nobody incompetent has turned up. Oh, and they're pricey. But they can't recommend a builder to me either. People have told me to use a service such as TrustaTrader. But I don't trust them; they take payment for listing.

operatingthetan 3y ago
Drive up to job sites and ask the subs there who they are contracting for and if they like them. Network from there.
nsvd 3y ago
As a surveyor, every builder I've dealt with has been sketchy. There are similar incentives with used car salesman, etc. Good luck.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  Can you elaborate on those incentives please

dahwolf 3y ago

I once was at a conference with my (former) boss where I got an inside peek at how a professional networker goes about it. The conference sessions had ended, flowing into the evening program which pretty much was the bar. Just before heading into it, she shared a paper note with me. It had a list of persons to talk to, for how long, the ice breaker, the excuse to exit the conversation and move to the next one, the importance of each target. Not knowing anybody at the conference, I just sat at the end of the bar, had some light "conversation by proximity" but mostly watched her execute the networking plan. To the casual and unknowing observer, a cheerful social butterfly "happens" to bump into random characters but I knew more. The only visual clue was her eyes shooting across the room and her watch any time her current conversation partner looked away for a second. Scanning for prey. I bet that as she returned home, she updated that massive network diagram in her garage to update the weights and other attributes. Whilst you might just call this clever professional behavior, I found it chilling. Engineered, not genuine, "working" people to get what you need. I wonder if normalizing that bleeds into personal relationships. Does it work though? Hell yes it does.

dnedic 3y ago
This feels extremely weird to read as someone naiively approaching networking where I actually want to talk to people, not just their professional side. On the other hand it might even be suboptimal in the long run because when you hire or partner with someone, you don't just hire their knowledge or expirience, you hire their personality, drive and creativity.
- dahwolf 3y ago
  It came across as quite cold-hearted to me. But you don't have to take it that far. In particular the learning can be that you can somewhat engineer a conversation by preparing it well.
  - solarmist 3y ago
    How the heck did she learn details like “he’s into studying fungi”? This goes beyond basic research into a person.

totallywrong 3y ago

I think networking is way overrated since there's Linkedin. Unless you need very specific contacts or something, recruiters will reach out and about 10% will have great roles. Sure, a direct connection might get you an opportunity faster, but for people like me who aren't naturally inclined to do so, the work of nurturing a network probably offsets the potential missed opportunities.

globalnode 3y ago

just as well i dont like people and thus dont have to worry about any of this

moneywoes 3y ago

Sounds like a MLM tbh but I get it. Networks are valuable Anyone familiar with any? I know he said not to solicit in groups but I’m into entrepreneurship tech would love to know any groups especially bootstrapping ( and all the marketing sales associated).

sacnoradhq 3y ago

The 0->1 problem is the irreducible problem. Network effects amplify like a "differential equation" or virtuous circle: proportional to the "amount" (quality) of people already present. One modern problem is that there are too many what I call "overpaid useless people": office workers with one and only one ability who are complacent and fail to enrich themselves in hobbies or professional development, and generally lack curiosity and don't read books. They also tend to be consumers not creators, and avoid volunteering for anything beyond themselves by feigning or actual incapability. Then there are the people who play video games, do drugs, immaturity, lack life experience, or generally seek to escape their lives rather than use their time constructively. People with their priorities out of order. This is part of the general bucket of liability if they need and take more than they offer. A third problem is most people these days keep others at a distance and avoid making friends for whatever reason: they either don't know how to start, maintain, or they avoid relationships with others. It's also a waste to be pro-social if the other party refuses to carry their side of the relationship: again, consumer mentality waiting around for others to put in the work for them.

thomasjudge 3y ago

Realtors are often good sources of info on contractors and trades

motohagiography 3y ago

Interesting, but the author is still sounding it out. Highly recommend Stanford prof Jeffery Pfeffer's "Power: Why some people have it...." book. The essential idea is that each field has a weighted triad of Performance, Credentials, and Relationships. Elite networks typically index on the latter two, and ascendant networks index on the first and last. I have spent a great deal of time in prestigious places, and I'm always sympathetic to the disappointment of people who have worked so hard to finally arrive there, only to be seated with me at the end of it after all their trouble. It's absurd. I'd say, why network when you can conquer and prevail? Being climby just means being irritating to progressively more powerful people. There is always a cluster of people around the powerful who try to be gatekeepers and pretenders. Their esteem has no value outside mediocre aspirations. Sure, there are careers to be made as mendicants, but that's what banking and politics are for. Tech is for improving the lives of others and solving problems as an honest service. Unless you are finding customers to make something they want, networking is inferior with a weak upside, imo.

moneywoes 3y ago
As someone with aspirations to do what you’re suggesting, how does one find these customers without networking?

zephrx1111 3y ago

There is a thing called sampling.

hknmtt 3y ago

reads like a linkedin ad :D

SenHeng 3y ago

I chanced upon this article and found it thought provoking. I'm essentially starting from zero, as I moved from the big city into a rural mountain area 2 years ago by myself and only know a handful of people. So I've been wondering what was a good way to bootstrap a social network for someone that's just awkward around strangers. I also don't have family in this country. Things I've tried. Joining local sports groups, am told they're full because of too many new members lately. Working out at the local gym, this was actually how I met my first friend. I probably should go more often but I wanted to try out another gym. Going to local events, flea markets, etc. I see people I know and greet them, but they're usually already with other people and it's awkward interrupting them. I generally stick around and chat for a few minutes, then I just leave because it's just weird forcing myself into a group. Work out of a co-working space once a week. Took a bit of time to find the right venue. Most of the places I've been to, people stick to themselves. Finally found one where there's some kind of community. As an off shoot of the above, I'm looking for a gym near the co-working area so I have less excuses not to go.

groby_b 3y ago
> am told they're full because of too many new members lately. This is good. This is a group that works well.They likely can give advice on where to ask, and whom to avoid. "Aww, I would've loved to play with you. Sorry that didn't work out - do you have recommendations where I could look?" is a good request. > I generally stick around and chat for a few minutes, then I just leave because it's just weird forcing myself into a group. The chance that you are the only singleton is small - find the other ones, talk to them. But also, talk to people about their interest. E.g. on the flea market "Hey, that's such a gorgeous set of drawers you're selling, really admire it, bummer I can't make space" gives them an opportunity to tell you a story. (Most people like telling stories about themselves. Give them the space to tell you that story. Yes, both of these are freaking scary. (Well, they are to me, at least). But they are a good way to form at least a tenuous connection. And next time you see them, you have somebody you know. Especially in rural areas, folks often have deep networks and are roping you in once they have ascertained you are "safe" for group consumption. (Downside: Some of these deep networks in rural areas are super-cliquish. I've lived in a place that talked about people as "the new folks" when they moved there 20 years ago. You can become surface friends, but deep friendship in those places takes forever. Find the other "new folks")

nebben64 3y ago

Thank you for posting this, one of the best insights I've read regarding this type of problem.