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I think the amnesiac effect of many anaesthestics also tricks us into thinking we go totally unconscious under their effects. I've been operated on several time

I think the amnesiac effect of many anaesthestics also tricks us into thinking we go totally unconscious under their effects. I've been operated on several times and sustained near life threatening injuries in the past. I can't remember any of the most painful bits, despite occasionally making conversation / looking around with my eyes open. I'm thankful I can't remember.

fzeroracer 3y ago
There was some interesting studies and such I read around anesthetics + memory blockers that still lead to some subconscious exhibition of PTSD. I don't have them on hand but there was some interesting stuff on how potentially we may still remember traumatic surgeries even if we can't explicitly recall them. That's why there's been a push towards refining sedation techniques further both to reduce the odds of a patient being conscious during surgery and also to reduce the amount of stress it can put on the body.
- Quinzel 3y ago
  I would absolutely love to read these studies!
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    I found the first one I was talking about [1] which talks about possible memory encoding while unconscious. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17900016/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17900016/
    - Quinzel 3y ago
      Thank you! That is awesome :)
- rcxdude 3y ago
  It would make sense if the mechanism for PTSD is unrelated to the mechanism for episodic memory which are disrupted by memory blockers
steveBK123 3y ago
Yes I got a hint of this the first time I went under, my first memory of being awake was back at home, on my sofa, upstairs. As my mom tells it, i walked myself to the car, behaved like a weirdo with my feet on the dashboard (never done this once in my life).. sprinted out the car, up the stairs, fell, got up.. went to the sofa, and fell asleep for a few hours. So clearly I was not out for the entire period I had amnesia for. It makes me wonder what parts I was unaware of vs what parts I was aware but memory wiped.
- Quinzel 3y ago
  I think a fundamental aspect to consciousness is memory recall to be honest. This line of thought gets kind of philosophical though because I often can’t recall my drive home from work - does that mean I wasn’t conscious? No! - highway hypnosis is yet another interesting consciousness (or lack of) phenomenon.
  - pmoriarty 3y ago
    Consciousness is a continuum not, a binary state. There are also subconscious processes at work. After a bit of practice you don't have to think about all the intricate actions you have to take to drive a car or ride a bike. Consciously you can focus on something else while other parts of you are aware of your surroundings and what you need to do to drive/ride. Same with simply walking. Unless you're in unfamiliar/dangerous terrain, you normally don't have to think about where you're going to put your feet or your balance. Your subconscious awareness and competence takes care of all that. It doesn't mean you're not aware or conscious on some level and to some degree, though.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    This shows that memory isn't required for consciousness. We can be fully conscious while forgetting everything after a few minutes or less. Actually, when we look at a highly detailed photo or video this is pretty standard: We forget most finer details within seconds.
    - Zircom 3y ago
shaky-carrousel 3y ago
I had to be operated while conscious but lightly sedated and I remember bits of it. I remember being told that I had to receive an injection around the orbit of my eye with anesthesia and that it would be painful. I remember being calm about it. I also remember that it was very painful but I felt ok with that. I was like: "it's true, it's really painful". So maybe it's like that always, even if you don't remember. You sometimes feel pain, but since you are sedated, you don't feel stressed about the pain.
- cubefox 3y ago
  A more worrying possibility is that we suffer terribly under anesthesia, but we can't move or scream because our muscles are temporarily paralyzed, and we can't remember the ordeal because our memory gets wiped.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    well, that's not just a worrying possibility [1]. bears the question what was going wrong? a) that you woke up b) that you remember having woken up 1: https://www.asahq.org/madeforthismoment/preparing-for-surgery/risks/waking-up-during-surgery/ https://www.asahq.org/madeforthismoment/preparing-for-surger...
    - cubefox 3y ago
      > The condition, called anesthesia awareness (waking up) during surgery, means the patient can recall their surroundings, or an event related to the surgery, while under general anesthesia. That's something else though. You could be very aware but forget it.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        i don't see why this is sth else.
        cubefox 3y ago
asylteltine 3y ago
That’s actually a good point. For anyone to truly feel conscious they need to have memory otherwise it would feel as if you just keep waking up

fzeroracer 3y ago

There was some interesting studies and such I read around anesthetics + memory blockers that still lead to some subconscious exhibition of PTSD. I don't have them on hand but there was some interesting stuff on how potentially we may still remember traumatic surgeries even if we can't explicitly recall them. That's why there's been a push towards refining sedation techniques further both to reduce the odds of a patient being conscious during surgery and also to reduce the amount of stress it can put on the body.

Quinzel 3y ago
I would absolutely love to read these studies!
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  I found the first one I was talking about [1] which talks about possible memory encoding while unconscious. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17900016/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17900016/
  - Quinzel 3y ago
    Thank you! That is awesome :)
rcxdude 3y ago
It would make sense if the mechanism for PTSD is unrelated to the mechanism for episodic memory which are disrupted by memory blockers

steveBK123 3y ago

Yes I got a hint of this the first time I went under, my first memory of being awake was back at home, on my sofa, upstairs. As my mom tells it, i walked myself to the car, behaved like a weirdo with my feet on the dashboard (never done this once in my life).. sprinted out the car, up the stairs, fell, got up.. went to the sofa, and fell asleep for a few hours. So clearly I was not out for the entire period I had amnesia for. It makes me wonder what parts I was unaware of vs what parts I was aware but memory wiped.

Quinzel 3y ago
I think a fundamental aspect to consciousness is memory recall to be honest. This line of thought gets kind of philosophical though because I often can’t recall my drive home from work - does that mean I wasn’t conscious? No! - highway hypnosis is yet another interesting consciousness (or lack of) phenomenon.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  Consciousness is a continuum not, a binary state. There are also subconscious processes at work. After a bit of practice you don't have to think about all the intricate actions you have to take to drive a car or ride a bike. Consciously you can focus on something else while other parts of you are aware of your surroundings and what you need to do to drive/ride. Same with simply walking. Unless you're in unfamiliar/dangerous terrain, you normally don't have to think about where you're going to put your feet or your balance. Your subconscious awareness and competence takes care of all that. It doesn't mean you're not aware or conscious on some level and to some degree, though.
- cubefox 3y ago
  This shows that memory isn't required for consciousness. We can be fully conscious while forgetting everything after a few minutes or less. Actually, when we look at a highly detailed photo or video this is pretty standard: We forget most finer details within seconds.
  - Zircom 3y ago

shaky-carrousel 3y ago

I had to be operated while conscious but lightly sedated and I remember bits of it. I remember being told that I had to receive an injection around the orbit of my eye with anesthesia and that it would be painful. I remember being calm about it. I also remember that it was very painful but I felt ok with that. I was like: "it's true, it's really painful". So maybe it's like that always, even if you don't remember. You sometimes feel pain, but since you are sedated, you don't feel stressed about the pain.

cubefox 3y ago
A more worrying possibility is that we suffer terribly under anesthesia, but we can't move or scream because our muscles are temporarily paralyzed, and we can't remember the ordeal because our memory gets wiped.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  well, that's not just a worrying possibility [1]. bears the question what was going wrong? a) that you woke up b) that you remember having woken up 1: https://www.asahq.org/madeforthismoment/preparing-for-surgery/risks/waking-up-during-surgery/ https://www.asahq.org/madeforthismoment/preparing-for-surger...
  - cubefox 3y ago
    > The condition, called anesthesia awareness (waking up) during surgery, means the patient can recall their surroundings, or an event related to the surgery, while under general anesthesia. That's something else though. You could be very aware but forget it.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      i don't see why this is sth else.
      - cubefox 3y ago

asylteltine 3y ago

That’s actually a good point. For anyone to truly feel conscious they need to have memory otherwise it would feel as if you just keep waking up