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They can do that of course, but if they do so, I'm leaving. Basically what I do on Reddit is to subscribe to the vision of a given group of mods. They're the o

They can do that of course, but if they do so, I'm leaving. Basically what I do on Reddit is to subscribe to the vision of a given group of mods. They're the ones I come to the site for, not Reddit the company. Eg, r/AskHistorians is good because it's run with an iron fist by the mods. When I come there I come seeking precisely that -- a well curated content archive that contains all wheat and zero chaff. If Reddit forces them off, and they create www.askhistorians.com, then I'm making a account there.

paulmd 3y ago
And that’s fine because the commercial value of Reddit is not in r/AskHistorians, it’s in r/aww and r/earthporn and r/mildlyinteresting. People don’t get it, Reddit is fundamentally pivoting away from being a message board and pivoting towards being TikTok. In the TikTok model your comments and discussion are not the commercially viable product. The eyeballs are the product, comments are a flavor to show that other users engaged the content. You know how New Reddit doesn’t show you the comments very well? Think about that in this context - the comments are no longer what matters anymore. And it’s ultimately not that hard to generate enough reasonably compelling content to keep people scrolling on those mindless frontpage subs. People will happily repost tumblr and TikTok just like they did a month ago. There will be a short term dip and in 6 months it’ll be completely back to normal. People are fundamentally making a mistake here and thinking theres a scenario where the Reddit they knew 10 years ago will still exist in a year. It already has been dead for a couple years, and it is going to pivot even harder towards shallow content and mindless scrolling, user comments are not something they can commercialize. It’s not that “Spez doesn’t get it!!!” it’s actually the users who don’t get it. Yeah they’re going to lose 10-20% of their users, they know. And they’re going to make 5x or 10x the revenue on the remaining 80%. Yes, it will be bland and suck for you, and it will make them a shitload of money. Not sure why this is so confusing for people - they don’t want you as the customer anymore. So long and good luck. If users want to stay, customize their feed for whatever keeps their own eyeballs engaged, great. But Reddit can’t commercialize it unless it’s on a first party app or website. The mod stuff is fixable and they’ve said they’ll be flexible on that (not that it makes anyone happy), but average users will not be consuming Reddit on a 3rd party app in a year, period.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  > It’s not that “Spez doesn’t get it!!!” it’s actually the users who don’t get it. Yeah they’re going to lose 10-20% of their users, they know. And they’re going to make 5x or 10x the revenue on the remaining 80%. Yes, it will be bland and suck for you, and it will make them a shitload of money. Not sure why this is so confusing for people - they don’t want you as the customer. That's a good point but I don't see what about this would magically make profits rise 5x or 10x. Like what's the value proposition here? TikTok and the like already exist. I don't see what Reddit has to offer especially since they've been very lazy offering their users anything. > The rest is just the ex-partner making a scene after you dumped them. They’ll get tired of it eventually, if not you get the cops to clean it up and move on. I mean, both parties can make a cold rational calculus. Reddit can calculate they'd be better off pivoting to mindless scrolling, fair enough. But the people unhappy with that can also calculate that they'd be better off making this process as unpleasant for Reddit as possible. Best case they win, and Reddit is forced to backtrack. Worst case, they still made a lot of noise and that likely decreases the chance of somebody else pivoting, and bolsters alternatives. I think an unpleasant truth some ignore is that tantrums have a purpose -- they're extremely unpleasant to be on the end of, that's why they're a thing at all, because they often do have power.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    > That's a good point but I don't see what about this would magically make profits rise 5x or 10x. Because right now everyone is using third-party clients, or at least old.reddit, and that means they're not viewing the ads. Even worse, they might be (shudders) commenting instead of scrolling. new.reddit and the native app are what your tiktok drip-feed looks like, and it's way easier to insert ads into that. In fact, it's actually exceptionally hard to insert ads into comment trees, whereas you can just throw the mcdonald's ad into the list of frontpage posts or whatever. So comments are being deprecated in favor of posts overall, because they're easier to monetize, and the new.reddit and native client are how you monetize them. It's not a coincidence that comments/etc are de-emphasized in the new-reddit interface, they don't want you commenting, they want you scrolling, just like tiktok. > Like what's the value proposition here? TikTok and the like already exist Tiktok is at risk of being banned in a lot of places, and is at minimum going to come under a lot of regulatory scrutiny and oversight. Because it has the strong potential to be, instead of your "AI girlfriend", your "AI best-friend with ties to extremism" that slowly algorithmically radicalizes you in whatever ways feel best for you personally according to your own interest. You're left-leaning? Fine here's some bernie videos and protesters getting beaten. Right leaning? OANN, and videos of protesters burning down a store. They can tune the engagement for each user, and push certain topics and stories while it not only feels organic, but is actually extremely engaging and compelling for each particular user. Just like Google controlling search means they control what surfaces in that medium. But Tiktok's not gonna blow it on adwords, that's way too powerful a propaganda tool. Reddit wants to position themselves as the alternative if/when the hammer starts to come down for Tiktok. And yes, there's instagram and snapchat and other things I would think of first instead of Reddit... but Reddit would say that the comment-based site hasn't been commercially successful for them. > I think an unpleasant truth some ignore is that tantrums have a purpose -- they're extremely unpleasant to be on the end of, that's why they're a thing at all, because they often do have power. Yeah, probably true.
lelanthran 3y ago
> If Reddit forces them off, and they create www.askhistorians.com, then I'm making a account there. And that's fine, but you're talking as if everyone is like you, with only 1 subreddit that they browse. In reality (and reddit probably has the numbers to verify this), most people jump across maybe 10 or more different mods. They're not going to go create 10 different accounts elsewhere. I personally am not a big reddit user, and yet I have about 10 sunreddits that I subscribe to. Logging into reddit (old.reddit), I see all those posts after login. This is also the reason why the federated system is broken by design: the type of users who use reddit don't want the friction of logging onto a dozen different instances to see all the posts related to ONE top. I think what a lot of people are missing is that centralisation is what provides the value reddit has. Moderators (seriously, those people are a dime a dozen - in fact you can charge mods a fee and you still won't run out of mods wanting to sign up) are not the primary value in reddit. Posts are not the primary value in reddit. Being the central place where all the people you want to hang out with are hanging out is the primary value of reddit.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  > In reality (and reddit probably has the numbers to verify this), most people jump across maybe 10 or more different mods. So do I. I expect there to form some viable alternative to Reddit eventually. > This is also the reason why the federated system is broken by design: the type of users who use reddit don't want the friction of logging onto a dozen different instances to see all the posts related to ONE top. Federation means separate servers talk to each other and can share content. Eg, I'm on fosstodon.org, but I see posts from an user with an account at tech.lgbt. That's how federation works. > I think what a lot of people are missing is that centralisation is what provides the value reddit has. Moderators (seriously, those people are a dime a dozen - in fact you can charge mods a fee and you still won't run out of mods wanting to sign up) are not the primary value in reddit. Posts are not the primary value in reddit. But this centralization can be provided by anyone else. I don't care that it's provided by Reddit Inc. I come for the posts, where they happen to be hosted isn't very important. I think it can also be provided in a federated manner. There's really no reason why Reddit couldn't be split into a myriad servers that then get aggregated into a giant feed for those who want it.
- 3y ago

paulmd 3y ago

And that’s fine because the commercial value of Reddit is not in r/AskHistorians, it’s in r/aww and r/earthporn and r/mildlyinteresting. People don’t get it, Reddit is fundamentally pivoting away from being a message board and pivoting towards being TikTok. In the TikTok model your comments and discussion are not the commercially viable product. The eyeballs are the product, comments are a flavor to show that other users engaged the content. You know how New Reddit doesn’t show you the comments very well? Think about that in this context - the comments are no longer what matters anymore. And it’s ultimately not that hard to generate enough reasonably compelling content to keep people scrolling on those mindless frontpage subs. People will happily repost tumblr and TikTok just like they did a month ago. There will be a short term dip and in 6 months it’ll be completely back to normal. People are fundamentally making a mistake here and thinking theres a scenario where the Reddit they knew 10 years ago will still exist in a year. It already has been dead for a couple years, and it is going to pivot even harder towards shallow content and mindless scrolling, user comments are not something they can commercialize. It’s not that “Spez doesn’t get it!!!” it’s actually the users who don’t get it. Yeah they’re going to lose 10-20% of their users, they know. And they’re going to make 5x or 10x the revenue on the remaining 80%. Yes, it will be bland and suck for you, and it will make them a shitload of money. Not sure why this is so confusing for people - they don’t want you as the customer anymore. So long and good luck. If users want to stay, customize their feed for whatever keeps their own eyeballs engaged, great. But Reddit can’t commercialize it unless it’s on a first party app or website. The mod stuff is fixable and they’ve said they’ll be flexible on that (not that it makes anyone happy), but average users will not be consuming Reddit on a 3rd party app in a year, period.

dale_glass 3y ago
> It’s not that “Spez doesn’t get it!!!” it’s actually the users who don’t get it. Yeah they’re going to lose 10-20% of their users, they know. And they’re going to make 5x or 10x the revenue on the remaining 80%. Yes, it will be bland and suck for you, and it will make them a shitload of money. Not sure why this is so confusing for people - they don’t want you as the customer. That's a good point but I don't see what about this would magically make profits rise 5x or 10x. Like what's the value proposition here? TikTok and the like already exist. I don't see what Reddit has to offer especially since they've been very lazy offering their users anything. > The rest is just the ex-partner making a scene after you dumped them. They’ll get tired of it eventually, if not you get the cops to clean it up and move on. I mean, both parties can make a cold rational calculus. Reddit can calculate they'd be better off pivoting to mindless scrolling, fair enough. But the people unhappy with that can also calculate that they'd be better off making this process as unpleasant for Reddit as possible. Best case they win, and Reddit is forced to backtrack. Worst case, they still made a lot of noise and that likely decreases the chance of somebody else pivoting, and bolsters alternatives. I think an unpleasant truth some ignore is that tantrums have a purpose -- they're extremely unpleasant to be on the end of, that's why they're a thing at all, because they often do have power.
- paulmd 3y ago
  > That's a good point but I don't see what about this would magically make profits rise 5x or 10x. Because right now everyone is using third-party clients, or at least old.reddit, and that means they're not viewing the ads. Even worse, they might be (shudders) commenting instead of scrolling. new.reddit and the native app are what your tiktok drip-feed looks like, and it's way easier to insert ads into that. In fact, it's actually exceptionally hard to insert ads into comment trees, whereas you can just throw the mcdonald's ad into the list of frontpage posts or whatever. So comments are being deprecated in favor of posts overall, because they're easier to monetize, and the new.reddit and native client are how you monetize them. It's not a coincidence that comments/etc are de-emphasized in the new-reddit interface, they don't want you commenting, they want you scrolling, just like tiktok. > Like what's the value proposition here? TikTok and the like already exist Tiktok is at risk of being banned in a lot of places, and is at minimum going to come under a lot of regulatory scrutiny and oversight. Because it has the strong potential to be, instead of your "AI girlfriend", your "AI best-friend with ties to extremism" that slowly algorithmically radicalizes you in whatever ways feel best for you personally according to your own interest. You're left-leaning? Fine here's some bernie videos and protesters getting beaten. Right leaning? OANN, and videos of protesters burning down a store. They can tune the engagement for each user, and push certain topics and stories while it not only feels organic, but is actually extremely engaging and compelling for each particular user. Just like Google controlling search means they control what surfaces in that medium. But Tiktok's not gonna blow it on adwords, that's way too powerful a propaganda tool. Reddit wants to position themselves as the alternative if/when the hammer starts to come down for Tiktok. And yes, there's instagram and snapchat and other things I would think of first instead of Reddit... but Reddit would say that the comment-based site hasn't been commercially successful for them. > I think an unpleasant truth some ignore is that tantrums have a purpose -- they're extremely unpleasant to be on the end of, that's why they're a thing at all, because they often do have power. Yeah, probably true.

lelanthran 3y ago

> If Reddit forces them off, and they create www.askhistorians.com, then I'm making a account there. And that's fine, but you're talking as if everyone is like you, with only 1 subreddit that they browse. In reality (and reddit probably has the numbers to verify this), most people jump across maybe 10 or more different mods. They're not going to go create 10 different accounts elsewhere. I personally am not a big reddit user, and yet I have about 10 sunreddits that I subscribe to. Logging into reddit (old.reddit), I see all those posts after login. This is also the reason why the federated system is broken by design: the type of users who use reddit don't want the friction of logging onto a dozen different instances to see all the posts related to ONE top. I think what a lot of people are missing is that centralisation is what provides the value reddit has. Moderators (seriously, those people are a dime a dozen - in fact you can charge mods a fee and you still won't run out of mods wanting to sign up) are not the primary value in reddit. Posts are not the primary value in reddit. Being the central place where all the people you want to hang out with are hanging out is the primary value of reddit.

dale_glass 3y ago
> In reality (and reddit probably has the numbers to verify this), most people jump across maybe 10 or more different mods. So do I. I expect there to form some viable alternative to Reddit eventually. > This is also the reason why the federated system is broken by design: the type of users who use reddit don't want the friction of logging onto a dozen different instances to see all the posts related to ONE top. Federation means separate servers talk to each other and can share content. Eg, I'm on fosstodon.org, but I see posts from an user with an account at tech.lgbt. That's how federation works. > I think what a lot of people are missing is that centralisation is what provides the value reddit has. Moderators (seriously, those people are a dime a dozen - in fact you can charge mods a fee and you still won't run out of mods wanting to sign up) are not the primary value in reddit. Posts are not the primary value in reddit. But this centralization can be provided by anyone else. I don't care that it's provided by Reddit Inc. I come for the posts, where they happen to be hosted isn't very important. I think it can also be provided in a federated manner. There's really no reason why Reddit couldn't be split into a myriad servers that then get aggregated into a giant feed for those who want it.
3y ago