5 ms·

One warning about 5-HTP here. It seems that it can be potentially cardiotoxic at higher doses, or so as I read.

ljf 3y ago
Certainly and some people also get serotonin syndrome if they mix this with other antidepressant medications. Read up before taking but to me this just highlights the impacts it can have. If it were patentable it would have had far more research I'm sure.
- freehorse 3y ago
  > to me this just highlights the impacts it can have. I believe it also highlights that the body cannot regulate its conversion to serotonin, as it does with L-tryptophan (which needs to be converted to 5HTP) for instance, which can result to these issues. Also, the body does not regulate where in the body the conversion happens, you _really_ do not want it do be converted to serotonin in peripheral tissue (as it can cause heart issues), you only want it in the brain. Heart palpitations is a very common side effect due to it. If it was patentable drug it would possibly have been banned/restricted as a drug like many other 5HT2b agonists (but it is not patentable as it is something that our own body makes), and research would have turned to something with less cardiotoxic effects.
  - noduerme 3y ago
    >> Heart palpitations is a very common side effect due to it. This is the first time I've heard that, but - at some point in my life I found a technique for triggering mass bursts of seratonin when I want them. It's not that complicated; when I'm depressed and really need it, I just focus on a time when I felt my brain flooded with it. I habitually live with very low happiness but I'm familiar with the feeling of overwhelming joy - and love of everything around me - and I can put myself there, at a cost. Usually measured in hours or minutes. I also have an arrhythmia. When I do this, I often get heart palpitations lasting from 10-15 minutes. (I'm aware that the process I'm describing is also totally undocumented, but I've been doing it for years).
    - Jarwain 3y ago
      I wouldn't necessarily call it totally undocumented. I think there's some form of meditative practice documented somewhere that would describe this. It kinda reminds me of loving-kindness meditation, but taken in a slightly different direction.
    - grugagag 3y ago
      Wouldn’t this come with a crash as a payback?
      - noduerme 3y ago
        It does. That's why I use it very sparingly.
        grugagag 3y ago
        Can I ask how sparringly? Can you take lesser amounts and take only when depleted so there’s no crash?
        noduerme 3y ago
        I pretty much only do it when I'm going into very big, stressful social situations, where I'm going to have to talk to a lot of people I don't know. I'm a person who loves one on one conversations with people (including strangers), but I'm shy and reserved in the presence of groups. One of the physical effects of this mental routine is to dilate my pupils pretty radically. That seems to create a positive feedback loop when I interact with new people. The positive social feedback sustains the reaction until I sort of crash out of it. On casual dates and normal nights out, I never do it. I do use it on the rare occasions when I shoot pool. All it really consists of is re-living the physical sensation and mental state of a few peak experiences - the ones where I effortlessly bowled a nearly perfect game, or hit a 3-point shot all net, or my first kiss with a beautiful woman (usually, but not always, my girlfriend). Nothing too complicated... just that momentary sense of something arriving and the world aligning perfectly. The whole trick for me is just thinking of that moment until I feel the rush of endorphins through my body, and remembering to keep living in it. In pool, I always miss when I think too much about a shot - but I can make it blindfolded if my brain is perfectly one with the world around me. And so it is in all aspects of life; most of my brain function is self sabotage and unnecessary overhead when it comes to just making a shot. I think it was from pool and bowling that I learned to do this thing which helps me in society.
freehorse 3y ago
This warning can never be overstated for 5-HTP. Higher doses/longer term use can have a lot of negative effects in the heart, as well as in the serotonin and dopamine system (even up to serotonin syndrome in the most extreme cases). A major problem is that the body does not have mechanisms to regulate conversion of 5-HTP to serotonin (5-HT), which is not a really good property of a supplement. One should do their search before starting it, which anyway holds as advice for most supplements, but even more for this one. Anecdotes should not be taken as evidence of overall safety.
- noduerme 3y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have a great grasp of drugs or biological pathways. The following is my extremely lay understanding: * The reason people started taking MDMA was that it caused their brains to release large bursts of seratonin, which felt good. * Receptors to seratonin tended to be overwhelmed, which caused people in the short term to be unable to achieve the same levels of ecstasy, and in the long term caused them to (grow new receptors? or at least...) have a perceived deficit of seratonin; causing short and long term depression in MDMA users. Surely, injecting yourself with the chemical that causes your brain to be happy can't just work forever...right?
  - simiones 3y ago
    Serotonin doesn't cause you to be happy. Its effects are more basic in some ways, but also more complex in others. It is a chemical which serves a purpose in at least all forms of multi-cellular life, from plants to animals - so you can imagine how old and fundamental its role is. Also, depression is not caused by low serotonin levels: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 > The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration.
    - 3y ago

ljf 3y ago

Certainly and some people also get serotonin syndrome if they mix this with other antidepressant medications. Read up before taking but to me this just highlights the impacts it can have. If it were patentable it would have had far more research I'm sure.

freehorse 3y ago
> to me this just highlights the impacts it can have. I believe it also highlights that the body cannot regulate its conversion to serotonin, as it does with L-tryptophan (which needs to be converted to 5HTP) for instance, which can result to these issues. Also, the body does not regulate where in the body the conversion happens, you _really_ do not want it do be converted to serotonin in peripheral tissue (as it can cause heart issues), you only want it in the brain. Heart palpitations is a very common side effect due to it. If it was patentable drug it would possibly have been banned/restricted as a drug like many other 5HT2b agonists (but it is not patentable as it is something that our own body makes), and research would have turned to something with less cardiotoxic effects.
- noduerme 3y ago
  >> Heart palpitations is a very common side effect due to it. This is the first time I've heard that, but - at some point in my life I found a technique for triggering mass bursts of seratonin when I want them. It's not that complicated; when I'm depressed and really need it, I just focus on a time when I felt my brain flooded with it. I habitually live with very low happiness but I'm familiar with the feeling of overwhelming joy - and love of everything around me - and I can put myself there, at a cost. Usually measured in hours or minutes. I also have an arrhythmia. When I do this, I often get heart palpitations lasting from 10-15 minutes. (I'm aware that the process I'm describing is also totally undocumented, but I've been doing it for years).
  - Jarwain 3y ago
    I wouldn't necessarily call it totally undocumented. I think there's some form of meditative practice documented somewhere that would describe this. It kinda reminds me of loving-kindness meditation, but taken in a slightly different direction.
  - grugagag 3y ago
    Wouldn’t this come with a crash as a payback?
    - noduerme 3y ago
      It does. That's why I use it very sparingly.
      - grugagag 3y ago
        Can I ask how sparringly? Can you take lesser amounts and take only when depleted so there’s no crash?
        noduerme 3y ago
        I pretty much only do it when I'm going into very big, stressful social situations, where I'm going to have to talk to a lot of people I don't know. I'm a person who loves one on one conversations with people (including strangers), but I'm shy and reserved in the presence of groups. One of the physical effects of this mental routine is to dilate my pupils pretty radically. That seems to create a positive feedback loop when I interact with new people. The positive social feedback sustains the reaction until I sort of crash out of it. On casual dates and normal nights out, I never do it. I do use it on the rare occasions when I shoot pool. All it really consists of is re-living the physical sensation and mental state of a few peak experiences - the ones where I effortlessly bowled a nearly perfect game, or hit a 3-point shot all net, or my first kiss with a beautiful woman (usually, but not always, my girlfriend). Nothing too complicated... just that momentary sense of something arriving and the world aligning perfectly. The whole trick for me is just thinking of that moment until I feel the rush of endorphins through my body, and remembering to keep living in it. In pool, I always miss when I think too much about a shot - but I can make it blindfolded if my brain is perfectly one with the world around me. And so it is in all aspects of life; most of my brain function is self sabotage and unnecessary overhead when it comes to just making a shot. I think it was from pool and bowling that I learned to do this thing which helps me in society.

freehorse 3y ago

This warning can never be overstated for 5-HTP. Higher doses/longer term use can have a lot of negative effects in the heart, as well as in the serotonin and dopamine system (even up to serotonin syndrome in the most extreme cases). A major problem is that the body does not have mechanisms to regulate conversion of 5-HTP to serotonin (5-HT), which is not a really good property of a supplement. One should do their search before starting it, which anyway holds as advice for most supplements, but even more for this one. Anecdotes should not be taken as evidence of overall safety.

noduerme 3y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have a great grasp of drugs or biological pathways. The following is my extremely lay understanding: * The reason people started taking MDMA was that it caused their brains to release large bursts of seratonin, which felt good. * Receptors to seratonin tended to be overwhelmed, which caused people in the short term to be unable to achieve the same levels of ecstasy, and in the long term caused them to (grow new receptors? or at least...) have a perceived deficit of seratonin; causing short and long term depression in MDMA users. Surely, injecting yourself with the chemical that causes your brain to be happy can't just work forever...right?
- simiones 3y ago
  Serotonin doesn't cause you to be happy. Its effects are more basic in some ways, but also more complex in others. It is a chemical which serves a purpose in at least all forms of multi-cellular life, from plants to animals - so you can imagine how old and fundamental its role is. Also, depression is not caused by low serotonin levels: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 > The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration.
  - 3y ago