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There's a substantive difference between a religious argument on Twitter and proper theological argument which leans into philosophy. The problem is that people

by b800h 3y ago

There's a substantive difference between a religious argument on Twitter and proper theological argument which leans into philosophy. The problem is that people aren't typically exposed to the good stuff because teachers and the media don't know it either. Sadly even local religious leaders; that's a serious issue.

3astofw3st__ 3y ago
Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.
- b800h 3y ago
  I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.
  - 3astofw3st__ 3y ago
    I am a Sikh (this isn't the reason I am not so keen on christian literature, I've just already been exposed to a fair bit) so I would definitely be interested in some material related to Eastern faiths, I'll check out David Bentley Hart too.
    - getwiththeprog 3y ago
      Plato is pretty good. He does this cool thing where the theology and morality of the city state is presented in a way which enables further development of the sciences and arts. Really blows your mind when you start to put it all together.
    - b800h 3y ago
      I just picked up You are Gods and it's actually pretty dense stuff and would be a poor choice if you were tired of Christian thought (even if he winds Vedanta into it). It might be worth having a look at Bentley Hart on Wikipedia and seeing if some of his other work appeals. "The Experience of God" is very good, as is "The Beauty of the Infinite". But obviously he's writing from a Christian perspective. From a completely different tack, you might read the "Tripura Rahasya", that's a good Eastern book of mystical philosophy. Some of the stuff I found most satisfying was proper modern Christian Apologetics, such as the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics. But the Eastern writing is excellent getting across the scale of the infinite and relating that to people on a personal level.
      - mablopoule 3y ago
        I just want to say thank you both for the back and forth, this is one of the most thought-provoking things I've seen in a while. Plus, a book recommendations is always good :).
- BasedAnon 3y ago
  You might want to take a look at Rebuttal of the Logicians by Ibn Taymiyyah and The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Al-Ghazali, as far as classical Islamic theological works that have been translated, those will be your go to books but they're by no means introductory works.
  - b800h 3y ago
    That's a good shout. What are invaluable and in sadly limited supply are religious teachers who can explain things one on one. As a result of (amazingly and sadly) the Second World War, this sort of training fell out of fashion in seminaries, and led to all sorts of dire consequences.
  - throwawayForMe2 3y ago
    As a contrast to those works, Summa Contra Gentiles by Aquinas would be a good follow up. Then to pull both together try Christian-Islamic Preambles of Faith - An Exercise in Philosophy of Religion or Kalâm for Our Day Modeled after Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Books I-III by Joseph Kenny, OP. https://www.crvp.org/publications/Series-IIA/IIA-10-Contents.pdf https://www.crvp.org/publications/Series-IIA/IIA-10-Contents...
krapp 3y ago
It's still all make-believe. And I say this as someone who has had an interest in Fortean and occult lore for years - it's just folklore people choose to pretend is real.
- DontchaKnowit 3y ago
  No its not. Its metaphor for truth which is unable to be expressed with precise language - because we lack understanding.
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    If you lack understanding of the truth, and can only refer to it through metaphor, then how do you know it is true?
    - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
      > If you lack understanding of the truth, and can only refer to it through metaphor, then how do you know it is true? Sure, then why bother systematizing its study in theology, would it be better to just study English language usage of metaphor?
  - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
    How can theology be a metaphor for truth when the core of what it's trying to reason about is unknowable? "Theology is the systematic study of the nature of the divine and, more broadly, of religious belief" [1]. The latter part I get, lots of people and groups (and regions) have religious beliefs and differences, so it's definitely worth some effort to figure out (from a sociological or anthropological view) what's going on within and between groups of people. I also get the ethics and philosophy parts, trying to what it means to be "good" etc. But this study of the divine is pure horses*t - even if it's not all just made up, then by definition it's still unknowable. If it's something that someone has just concocted on a whim and claimed it was dictated to them by the Almighty, then it's at best a 2nd or 3rd hand source and a dubious one at that. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

by b800h 3y ago

3astofw3st__ 3y ago

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

b800h 3y ago
I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.
- 3astofw3st__ 3y ago
  I am a Sikh (this isn't the reason I am not so keen on christian literature, I've just already been exposed to a fair bit) so I would definitely be interested in some material related to Eastern faiths, I'll check out David Bentley Hart too.
  - getwiththeprog 3y ago
    Plato is pretty good. He does this cool thing where the theology and morality of the city state is presented in a way which enables further development of the sciences and arts. Really blows your mind when you start to put it all together.
  - b800h 3y ago
    I just picked up You are Gods and it's actually pretty dense stuff and would be a poor choice if you were tired of Christian thought (even if he winds Vedanta into it). It might be worth having a look at Bentley Hart on Wikipedia and seeing if some of his other work appeals. "The Experience of God" is very good, as is "The Beauty of the Infinite". But obviously he's writing from a Christian perspective. From a completely different tack, you might read the "Tripura Rahasya", that's a good Eastern book of mystical philosophy. Some of the stuff I found most satisfying was proper modern Christian Apologetics, such as the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics. But the Eastern writing is excellent getting across the scale of the infinite and relating that to people on a personal level.
    - mablopoule 3y ago
      I just want to say thank you both for the back and forth, this is one of the most thought-provoking things I've seen in a while. Plus, a book recommendations is always good :).
BasedAnon 3y ago
You might want to take a look at Rebuttal of the Logicians by Ibn Taymiyyah and The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Al-Ghazali, as far as classical Islamic theological works that have been translated, those will be your go to books but they're by no means introductory works.
- b800h 3y ago
  That's a good shout. What are invaluable and in sadly limited supply are religious teachers who can explain things one on one. As a result of (amazingly and sadly) the Second World War, this sort of training fell out of fashion in seminaries, and led to all sorts of dire consequences.
- throwawayForMe2 3y ago
  As a contrast to those works, Summa Contra Gentiles by Aquinas would be a good follow up. Then to pull both together try Christian-Islamic Preambles of Faith - An Exercise in Philosophy of Religion or Kalâm for Our Day Modeled after Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Books I-III by Joseph Kenny, OP. https://www.crvp.org/publications/Series-IIA/IIA-10-Contents.pdf https://www.crvp.org/publications/Series-IIA/IIA-10-Contents...

krapp 3y ago

It's still all make-believe. And I say this as someone who has had an interest in Fortean and occult lore for years - it's just folklore people choose to pretend is real.

DontchaKnowit 3y ago
No its not. Its metaphor for truth which is unable to be expressed with precise language - because we lack understanding.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  If you lack understanding of the truth, and can only refer to it through metaphor, then how do you know it is true?
  - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
    > If you lack understanding of the truth, and can only refer to it through metaphor, then how do you know it is true? Sure, then why bother systematizing its study in theology, would it be better to just study English language usage of metaphor?
- Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
  How can theology be a metaphor for truth when the core of what it's trying to reason about is unknowable? "Theology is the systematic study of the nature of the divine and, more broadly, of religious belief" [1]. The latter part I get, lots of people and groups (and regions) have religious beliefs and differences, so it's definitely worth some effort to figure out (from a sociological or anthropological view) what's going on within and between groups of people. I also get the ethics and philosophy parts, trying to what it means to be "good" etc. But this study of the divine is pure horses*t - even if it's not all just made up, then by definition it's still unknowable. If it's something that someone has just concocted on a whim and claimed it was dictated to them by the Almighty, then it's at best a 2nd or 3rd hand source and a dubious one at that. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology