6 ms·

On the one hand I feel exactly like you do, on the other hand I observe that my teenage daughter is making real friends on discord and game servers, just like I

by dagw 3y ago

On the one hand I feel exactly like you do, on the other hand I observe that my teenage daughter is making real friends on discord and game servers, just like I did on usenet and forums. So maybe it's you/me getting older rather than (just) the internet changing. Oh the good old days :( As do I, but I suspect much of what I miss is simply just being young and free and all that comes with that.

t0bia_s 3y ago
They make friends because of product they sell and gather around. It's different.
mjburgess 3y ago
The trajectory of discord might be: under-charge and bring in users to supply content; increase charge when users now depend on that content; fail & monetize their data and their attention; succeed & implode because users dont want their attention/data monetized. This would be less of an issue if users had clear legal rights (perhaps IP rights) to their own data. I'd have fewer problems with "commercial platforms" if they couldn't rent-seek on free labour, ie., if the created content could be easily "replatformed". Perhaps that's the next phase of the privacy war: the right to replatform.
- Kiro 3y ago
  What's the free labour on Discord?
  - mjburgess 3y ago
    Every time you type you create value for the platform. Moderators, users, etc. are people volunteering for each other -- not for discord. Discord is just a public park. At some point probably they'll go full social-media-megacorp and start to believe they own all groups using the public park; all their leaflets, and posters, and boardgames. All their time and effort. This is really the heart of the reddit blackout. Who own's what makes reddit valuable? On any sane sense digital ownership rights: it's users. Reddit inc provides well-trimmed grass and a nice pond (ie., source code and servers).
    - mnsc 3y ago
      This is value: https://i.imgur.com/QGEwbPI.png https://i.imgur.com/QGEwbPI.png I don't think I will read anything else this insightful today. Would I pay for this thread? Absolutely. Would I pay $19.99/month for HNPREMIUM where I could read "the full thread" of top content providers like mjburgess? Nope.
      - saaaaaam 3y ago
        I can’t exactly pinpoint what it is about this but I can’t help feeling that there’s a certain irony in you taking a screenshot of a perfectly readable, accessible post on here and posting that as (to my mind) a less readable less accessible, decontextualised piece of content - an image on an image sharing site. Is it because people will genuinely engage with that content there? Is it a “this is such good content I’ve captured it for posterity - look here’s the proof!” type of endorsement? Or is it an attempt to archive the content into some sort of collective memory? Or an aide memoire for your own purposes? Genuinely curious to understand your motivation, it’s not a criticism of what you’ve done, just something I feel I don’t understand.
        AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        I can only guess that they simply wanted a pointer to a contained set of data with bounded reference So that was easier or more impactful to communicate via image than typing “this thread is valuable” At least that’s how it made sense to me
        mnsc 3y ago
        You're right and sorry, It was just a online way of me enthusiastically pointing at a thing and trying to say: This is value, just a snippet of text on a pale yellow background, where no-one were actively trying to create this value. I can't really put my finger on what I'm trying to say though so i guess that is the root the confusion. :D Like, I don't get paid for this content so it doesn't have to make sense. edit: also I use greenshot so it's too easy for me to screenshot and get an imgur-link. And yes, I'm a screenshoter, sending my colleagues images of text all the time. I'm lucky to be alive still. edit2: example, slack dm from 1 hour ago https://i.imgur.com/807OQML.png https://i.imgur.com/807OQML.png
  - ornornor 3y ago
    Network effect. More and more projects, creators, friends setup a discord which brings more and more people in. These are moderated by whoever created them, and bringing more users (followers) is the creator’s work. But people depending on discord is what discord is after. I fully expect a bait and switch on this platform once it has captured enough users.
    - raxxorraxor 3y ago
      And that would be easy, since all the info and knowledge is only accessible through discord. I use it too, but I believe many project make the mistake of only having interactions there. Discoverability will be low, the search insufficient. Basically not part of the web at all.
- danaris 3y ago
  That's true—but it doesn't mean that the friends, conversations, and communities people are making on Discord now are any less real.
cykros 3y ago
The difference was, back in the good old days, you were making friends with the people who owned and ran the platforms you were on. And they weren't (usually) slurping up all manner of data about you to sell off access to in one form or other. That is not the case now. On the other hand, from a parent's perspective, the "good old days" were an absolute nightmare, because nobody was particularly responsible for policing content your kids were being shown (except for, well, you). Whether or not you SHOULD be willing to offload that responsibility set aside as a matter for debate, you for the most part CAN assume that the volume of heinously inappropriate content being foisted upon your unwitting 15 year old is a bit more limited, at least on these big platform sites (aside from some of the more ephemeral content, where it's usually a matter of taking it down only AFTER the kids see it). But you can also usually rest a bit more easily knowing your 15 year old isn't uploading naked pictures of themselves to reddit like they may have been to a vbulletin or phpbb site in the days of yore (though, nothing stops them from going off the beaten path and doing so elsewhere unless you've got that firewall and/or actual monitoring going on). I guess the point is, there are pros and cons. Personally I approach the kids on the Internet thing with some pretty hefty firewalling and monitoring and would really just love a return to the greater amount of decentralization (and for the love of god, search engines that just find what's out there, and report back based on terms, rather than curate "acceptable" and "promotion worthy" content...but this may be wishing for too much). But others may have different priorities.
- HelloNurse 3y ago
  Social media platforms and their "policing content" caused major cultural degradation. For example the loose girls who 25 years ago would have maintained web galleries of honest, mostly well made naked pics of themselves now post Instagram reels where they use a strong light source from behind to display the silhouette of their pussy through a thin dress: no nudity, but far more perversion.
  - ChoGGi 3y ago
    Well Yakko, a gentle foliage of shadows is what I get off on.
- 3y ago

by dagw 3y ago

t0bia_s 3y ago

They make friends because of product they sell and gather around. It's different.

mjburgess 3y ago

The trajectory of discord might be: under-charge and bring in users to supply content; increase charge when users now depend on that content; fail & monetize their data and their attention; succeed & implode because users dont want their attention/data monetized. This would be less of an issue if users had clear legal rights (perhaps IP rights) to their own data. I'd have fewer problems with "commercial platforms" if they couldn't rent-seek on free labour, ie., if the created content could be easily "replatformed". Perhaps that's the next phase of the privacy war: the right to replatform.

Kiro 3y ago
What's the free labour on Discord?
- mjburgess 3y ago
  Every time you type you create value for the platform. Moderators, users, etc. are people volunteering for each other -- not for discord. Discord is just a public park. At some point probably they'll go full social-media-megacorp and start to believe they own all groups using the public park; all their leaflets, and posters, and boardgames. All their time and effort. This is really the heart of the reddit blackout. Who own's what makes reddit valuable? On any sane sense digital ownership rights: it's users. Reddit inc provides well-trimmed grass and a nice pond (ie., source code and servers).
  - mnsc 3y ago
    This is value: https://i.imgur.com/QGEwbPI.png https://i.imgur.com/QGEwbPI.png I don't think I will read anything else this insightful today. Would I pay for this thread? Absolutely. Would I pay $19.99/month for HNPREMIUM where I could read "the full thread" of top content providers like mjburgess? Nope.
    - saaaaaam 3y ago
      I can’t exactly pinpoint what it is about this but I can’t help feeling that there’s a certain irony in you taking a screenshot of a perfectly readable, accessible post on here and posting that as (to my mind) a less readable less accessible, decontextualised piece of content - an image on an image sharing site. Is it because people will genuinely engage with that content there? Is it a “this is such good content I’ve captured it for posterity - look here’s the proof!” type of endorsement? Or is it an attempt to archive the content into some sort of collective memory? Or an aide memoire for your own purposes? Genuinely curious to understand your motivation, it’s not a criticism of what you’ve done, just something I feel I don’t understand.
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        I can only guess that they simply wanted a pointer to a contained set of data with bounded reference So that was easier or more impactful to communicate via image than typing “this thread is valuable” At least that’s how it made sense to me
        mnsc 3y ago
        You're right and sorry, It was just a online way of me enthusiastically pointing at a thing and trying to say: This is value, just a snippet of text on a pale yellow background, where no-one were actively trying to create this value. I can't really put my finger on what I'm trying to say though so i guess that is the root the confusion. :D Like, I don't get paid for this content so it doesn't have to make sense. edit: also I use greenshot so it's too easy for me to screenshot and get an imgur-link. And yes, I'm a screenshoter, sending my colleagues images of text all the time. I'm lucky to be alive still. edit2: example, slack dm from 1 hour ago https://i.imgur.com/807OQML.png https://i.imgur.com/807OQML.png
- ornornor 3y ago
  Network effect. More and more projects, creators, friends setup a discord which brings more and more people in. These are moderated by whoever created them, and bringing more users (followers) is the creator’s work. But people depending on discord is what discord is after. I fully expect a bait and switch on this platform once it has captured enough users.
  - raxxorraxor 3y ago
    And that would be easy, since all the info and knowledge is only accessible through discord. I use it too, but I believe many project make the mistake of only having interactions there. Discoverability will be low, the search insufficient. Basically not part of the web at all.
danaris 3y ago
That's true—but it doesn't mean that the friends, conversations, and communities people are making on Discord now are any less real.

cykros 3y ago

The difference was, back in the good old days, you were making friends with the people who owned and ran the platforms you were on. And they weren't (usually) slurping up all manner of data about you to sell off access to in one form or other. That is not the case now. On the other hand, from a parent's perspective, the "good old days" were an absolute nightmare, because nobody was particularly responsible for policing content your kids were being shown (except for, well, you). Whether or not you SHOULD be willing to offload that responsibility set aside as a matter for debate, you for the most part CAN assume that the volume of heinously inappropriate content being foisted upon your unwitting 15 year old is a bit more limited, at least on these big platform sites (aside from some of the more ephemeral content, where it's usually a matter of taking it down only AFTER the kids see it). But you can also usually rest a bit more easily knowing your 15 year old isn't uploading naked pictures of themselves to reddit like they may have been to a vbulletin or phpbb site in the days of yore (though, nothing stops them from going off the beaten path and doing so elsewhere unless you've got that firewall and/or actual monitoring going on). I guess the point is, there are pros and cons. Personally I approach the kids on the Internet thing with some pretty hefty firewalling and monitoring and would really just love a return to the greater amount of decentralization (and for the love of god, search engines that just find what's out there, and report back based on terms, rather than curate "acceptable" and "promotion worthy" content...but this may be wishing for too much). But others may have different priorities.

HelloNurse 3y ago
Social media platforms and their "policing content" caused major cultural degradation. For example the loose girls who 25 years ago would have maintained web galleries of honest, mostly well made naked pics of themselves now post Instagram reels where they use a strong light source from behind to display the silhouette of their pussy through a thin dress: no nudity, but far more perversion.
- ChoGGi 3y ago
  Well Yakko, a gentle foliage of shadows is what I get off on.
3y ago