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I see, you are taking a more 'we decide our own responses' view than I was. That we can decide not to respond to status. I am coming from more deterministic vi

I see, you are taking a more 'we decide our own responses' view than I was. That we can decide not to respond to status. I am coming from more deterministic view. That all of the examples you gave are some form of response to status, even decency. The brain evolved with some group behaviors built into the architecture, but it is also very adaptable. All of the huge variety of behaviors you are outlining as choices (ass kisser, flatter...all), I am saying are pre-determined through evolution, and the environment the brain was raised in (culture, nature, etc..). In todays world there are too many variables to make 100% predictions, so it looks chaotic and like there are choices. It is super complex to map out those responses, because the brain as system is modifiable, and todays world inputs a lot of seemingly random variables. I'd say all behavior, status, or decency, is programmed by evolution, as we evolved to live in groups. Because, where else would it have come from? But, the brain is also adaptable, so this 'pre-programming' isn't an easy black/white formula. Re-reading your note. I think what you said here "likely evolutionarily and socially encouraged, but not deterministically" is it. We are agreeing, but on a sliding scale on one variable 'status'. I'm saying it is a stronger variable than you are. But now we are splitting hairs. This is typically what I come back to, eventually we will boil down human responses to some chemistry and neuroscience. And then we'll know, but until then we are coming up with these 'speculative' models to see what fits. Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. Schopenhauer

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Maybe we are splitting hairs, but I think you are giving evolution far too much credit. >All of the huge variety of behaviors you are outlining as choices (ass kisser, flatter...all), I am saying are pre-determined through evolution, and the environment the brain was raised in (culture, nature, etc..). In todays world there are too many variables to make 100% predictions, so it looks chaotic and like there are choices. I am saying that most of what we see IS chaotic and emergent behavior, not behavior that was selected for. Most of human complexity and experience is artifacts and unintended results from an evelutionary perspective. By way of example, the human brain "architecture" was evolutionarily selected to be able to make simple tools and get more calories. The fact that we build spaceships, the internet, and videogames is emergent phenomenon arising from our "architecture", but not selected for. Styling many (if not most) aspects of human behavior, especially specific ones, to evolutionary fitness or purpose is overfitting or over-applying a huristic. It mostly 2nd, 3rd, or 100th order results of something that was selected for evolutionarily. >I'd say all behavior, status, or decency, is programmed by evolution, as we evolved to live in groups. Because, where else would it have come from? Evolution doesn't build or require organisms behave in an optimal way. Evolution simply favors ogranisms with behavior that, on net, is just the slightest bit better than chance. It doesnt matter if 99% of behavior is random noise, and 1% helpful. It doesnt matter if 49% is actively detrimental, if 51% is advantageous. You could asky why people find nicotine additictive. The "deterministisic" answer is beer must be evolutionarily advantageous and be programmed for. A closer answer would be that it is random chance that nicotine triggers some biological pathways designed for a different purpose entirely. I think the vast majority of human behavior and experience is simply evolutionarily unintended consequenses interaction and running away with eachother. Like I said above, 1% advantage and 99% random noise is completely compatible with evolutionary theroy.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  I agree with all of that. Maybe we are splitting hairs between 'evolution' as a selection process (and we are singling out humans to discuss), and the environment as a total system that is in constant flux and development with evolution as the rule. And in this large system, there is a lot of chaos, but each part does follow evolution to adapt to the chaos. Thus everything is evolution, regardless of if it was emergent or artifacts. We exist because we got here by evolving along with everything else in our environment. Sure some things aligned in our favor and it looks emergent. But the base system had to exist for something to emerge from. So for humans specifically, we can see that group behavior can lead to individual success, groups with more success (more calories) because of some group behavior would survive, and whatever brain architecture lead to that behavior would be the surviving trait. Yes, there is a lot of theories, or models that overfit what was are trying to talk about, like status. But there are human behaviors, and we can study them, even if our early attempts have some faults. And, with all of what you said, and I said. It is true that there are so many variables that we have evolved/adapted for (including behaviors), that in the modern world we have shifted all of the inputs so that our evolved brain is basically thrown into a blender and it all looks like chaos. And now we are trying to develop models based on the outputs of chaos. I just happen to be hopeful we will be able to tease it out. The human animal has behaviors and traits just like flocking birds, we can study flocking, we can study humans forming groups. Chimps, Lion Prides, all very stable group dynamics that follow the same pattern over and over. Humans are just another animal to study. And it seems like human primates do pay a lot of attention to status. I think we are just arguing over the sliding scale of 1%-99% what is random. For beer. That is curious case. Animals all the way back to the fruit fly have mechanisms for processing alcohol. Even animals very far away on the evolutionary tree can get drunk. So that ability has been around, I think it has something to do with using calories. There are calories in alcohol, so this had an advantage, and getting drunk is the artifact. Things like Nicotine, cocaine, heroin, trigger things in the brain that are totally random, not evolved FOR. If anything we should evolve the ability to defend against the detrimental effects. Maybe that would happen if we didn't have technology to save people and they died out.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Maybe we are splitting hairs, but I think you are giving evolution far too much credit. >All of the huge variety of behaviors you are outlining as choices (ass kisser, flatter...all), I am saying are pre-determined through evolution, and the environment the brain was raised in (culture, nature, etc..). In todays world there are too many variables to make 100% predictions, so it looks chaotic and like there are choices. I am saying that most of what we see IS chaotic and emergent behavior, not behavior that was selected for. Most of human complexity and experience is artifacts and unintended results from an evelutionary perspective. By way of example, the human brain "architecture" was evolutionarily selected to be able to make simple tools and get more calories. The fact that we build spaceships, the internet, and videogames is emergent phenomenon arising from our "architecture", but not selected for. Styling many (if not most) aspects of human behavior, especially specific ones, to evolutionary fitness or purpose is overfitting or over-applying a huristic. It mostly 2nd, 3rd, or 100th order results of something that was selected for evolutionarily. >I'd say all behavior, status, or decency, is programmed by evolution, as we evolved to live in groups. Because, where else would it have come from? Evolution doesn't build or require organisms behave in an optimal way. Evolution simply favors ogranisms with behavior that, on net, is just the slightest bit better than chance. It doesnt matter if 99% of behavior is random noise, and 1% helpful. It doesnt matter if 49% is actively detrimental, if 51% is advantageous. You could asky why people find nicotine additictive. The "deterministisic" answer is beer must be evolutionarily advantageous and be programmed for. A closer answer would be that it is random chance that nicotine triggers some biological pathways designed for a different purpose entirely. I think the vast majority of human behavior and experience is simply evolutionarily unintended consequenses interaction and running away with eachother. Like I said above, 1% advantage and 99% random noise is completely compatible with evolutionary theroy.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
I agree with all of that. Maybe we are splitting hairs between 'evolution' as a selection process (and we are singling out humans to discuss), and the environment as a total system that is in constant flux and development with evolution as the rule. And in this large system, there is a lot of chaos, but each part does follow evolution to adapt to the chaos. Thus everything is evolution, regardless of if it was emergent or artifacts. We exist because we got here by evolving along with everything else in our environment. Sure some things aligned in our favor and it looks emergent. But the base system had to exist for something to emerge from. So for humans specifically, we can see that group behavior can lead to individual success, groups with more success (more calories) because of some group behavior would survive, and whatever brain architecture lead to that behavior would be the surviving trait. Yes, there is a lot of theories, or models that overfit what was are trying to talk about, like status. But there are human behaviors, and we can study them, even if our early attempts have some faults. And, with all of what you said, and I said. It is true that there are so many variables that we have evolved/adapted for (including behaviors), that in the modern world we have shifted all of the inputs so that our evolved brain is basically thrown into a blender and it all looks like chaos. And now we are trying to develop models based on the outputs of chaos. I just happen to be hopeful we will be able to tease it out. The human animal has behaviors and traits just like flocking birds, we can study flocking, we can study humans forming groups. Chimps, Lion Prides, all very stable group dynamics that follow the same pattern over and over. Humans are just another animal to study. And it seems like human primates do pay a lot of attention to status. I think we are just arguing over the sliding scale of 1%-99% what is random. For beer. That is curious case. Animals all the way back to the fruit fly have mechanisms for processing alcohol. Even animals very far away on the evolutionary tree can get drunk. So that ability has been around, I think it has something to do with using calories. There are calories in alcohol, so this had an advantage, and getting drunk is the artifact. Things like Nicotine, cocaine, heroin, trigger things in the brain that are totally random, not evolved FOR. If anything we should evolve the ability to defend against the detrimental effects. Maybe that would happen if we didn't have technology to save people and they died out.