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This is a known issue but the down stream effect won’t be felt for a while. Let’s be clear we’re talking about general behavioral trend, not trying to police a

This is a known issue but the down stream effect won’t be felt for a while. Let’s be clear we’re talking about general behavioral trend, not trying to police an individual, which is the crux of contention for these topics. Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true. The education gap between men and women are growing. More women enroll and graduate from college then men. Many young men, mostly lower-middle class, (whether fairly or not) feel like the education system does not work for them. Society and companies are reconciling the barriers for women’s advancement and we’re only observing this initial gap. That is well and good. But in 10-20 years women will out number men in many fields requiring higher education. The real problem arises when that clashes with traditional expectations. The women in the article is a successful Yale grad who wants a partner with better pedigree. If you include looks and height requirements her dating pool is like <0.01% of the population. As that cascades to women in general with college education refusing to consider men in trade, that mismatch grows wider. The implication of the dating “market” not being able to match buyers and sellers would have some interesting dynamics.

joker99 3y ago
> Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true. I'm not sure this is absolutely true - at least for Germany. Here the figures show, that women and men, ceteris paribus, earn pretty much the same (+-3%). Until... children come into the mix. The lack of child care and societies view on parental leave (for men at least) means, that generally speaking the woman stays home to take care of the child and later on moves on to a part time position thus earning less and having to rely on the partners income again.
- redmerchant2 3y ago
  I think that’s a good point but the idea your (male) partner has to make more seems silly. The core idea of finding a partner that is strictly better is the concern the article raises. If she makes 300k a year and he makes 150k a year, the studies suggest women would refuse to take that. But if we suppose they get together, even with the haircut in wages from taking time for childcare, they will still have a great standard of living.
  - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
    I'm skeptical that the studies cover income that far above the median actually.
chongli 3y ago
I think it’ll sort itself out fairly quickly. Women who refuse to “date down” will find themselves getting older and lonelier. They’ll open themselves up to more potential partners because long term loneliness is much worse than status anxiety (and people tend to lose their status anxiety as they get older).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  I am not optimistic that it’ll sort itself out. In my experience spinsters get more radical and less agreeable, in effect double down on their beliefs. It’s like watching a train wreck that takes 30 years. I’ve seen both women and men become embittered over time and I don’t think any of them will recover.
  - PoignardAzur 3y ago
    Yeah, bitterness has a way of sustaining itself. After a while being bitter becomes your primary coping mechanism, it gets harder to let go of it. I had a striking conversation with my dad recently, where he said that the thing that helped him get better was being alone, because he had nobody left to blame his problems on except himself. But some people can sustain the bitterness even alone!
- dahwolf 3y ago
  I don't think so. My anecdotal experience in life is that people tend to settle in their beliefs somewhere in their 30s, and will stick to it even if it's a type of self harm. Both men and women will turn bitter and simply opt-out for life. Not all, but many. Women that do this tend to be better off than men, as they have a type of alternative support network whilst many men do not.
majormajor 3y ago
> The education gap between men and women are growing. More women enroll and graduate from college then men. Many young men, mostly lower-middle class, (whether fairly or not) feel like the education system does not work for them. So, like, isn't the question "why"? Why do boys, particularly lower- or lower-middle class, not believe in the education system as much as their sisters? School sucks, work sucks, then you die. But that's not new. And it's not stopping the girls/women. So why aren't the boys doing what previous generations did? I don't know the answer, but just saying "they don't like it" is hard to action on. Are parents too indulgent with boys in a way they aren't with girls? Is boy-oriented media setting up more unrealistic expectations relative to girl-oriented stuff? Are there just that many boys who can't deal with a world where uncontrolled aggression is less tolerated? I haven't seen a really good thorough investigation of this. (I've seen lots of bad-faith "this is what happens when you leave the Bible behind and women don't have to serve their men" ones...) I'm also not sure how much "we" as a society should care in the aggregate, vs having empathy for in the specific. Things never stay static, the system (institutions, culture, and individuals) will likely adjust. It's sad an overachieving woman reaches the top and can't find the ideal person she had built up in her head. It's sad a man doesn't apply himself in school or to building his social skills can't find dates. But it's also great that that woman was able to do all that. And there are still countless happy relationships and marriages happening - and many of them eventually separate, but overall, it seems like there is less violence and misery than in the past.
- blackbear_ 3y ago
  A possible explanation is that most teachers in primary school are female, which creates an environment and behavioral expectations that favor girls, e.g.: - Teachers and the Gender Gaps in Student Achievement - https://jhr.uwpress.org/content/XLII/3/528 https://jhr.uwpress.org/content/XLII/3/528 - Gender differences in teachers’ perceptions of students’ temperament, educational competence, and teachability - https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2044-8279.2010.02017.x https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2044-8279.2010.02017.x
  - majormajor 3y ago
    That seems weird though, right? Cause in the US teachers, especially for early-childhood, have been predominantly female since before this gap.
dahwolf 3y ago
"Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true." This independence remains to be seen. The assumption is that a higher education for women will structurally lead to complete financial independence across their life's path but I believe this to be a rosy view. First, for all but the top 10%, the cost of living is so high that it almost requires a partner. There goes your independence. Second, you have to make it to the end. Say you go at it alone, that means ~45 years of relentless full-time work, managing the 401K and nothing can happen under way, as there will be nobody to help. This is the existential stress that men have always faced in their provider role. The complete lack of optionality, zero tolerance for failure, and lack of any safety net. This is not to say that women can't handle this, I'm saying it remains to be seen. Third, whilst women may be highly educated, a huge portion of them work in administrative functions, NGOs, the like. Fields that are very exposed to the swings of the economy.
dahwolf 3y ago
Added bonus of selecting for the 0.01% of men: if you're extraordinarily lucky to secure him, you have a new problem: the man has options.
- kwere 3y ago
  Thats one thing I don't understand about hypergamy (dating app data proves it), why would a woman be in a situation in which she is easily the second, third wheel or worse
  - dahwolf 3y ago
    Status signaling to other women, I imagine. But perhaps also media/social media fueling these unrealistic expectations and incorrectly normalizing them.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    I think it's a direct representation of how unequal the power in society is. Being the 10th wife of a price is better than being the first wife of a commoner somewhere like Saudi Arabia (as an example - can pick any society with high power inequality) in terms of the chances of reproductive success of your offspring.
littlecranky67 3y ago
> But in 10-20 years women will out number men in many fields requiring higher education The irony is, that those white-collar higher education jobs might be the first to be replaced by AI, and in the end not result in high income. We might be looking at a future where a builder, plumber, craftsman etc. will be high up in income and status. I'm curious to see if women with high education but low income would suddenly be attracted to men with low (formal) education and high income.
- kwere 3y ago
  Because leftist women/men in "power cities" in the Coasts would be affected, I expect enormous regulations to protect them, unless strategically (against china) damaging.

joker99 3y ago

> Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true. I'm not sure this is absolutely true - at least for Germany. Here the figures show, that women and men, ceteris paribus, earn pretty much the same (+-3%). Until... children come into the mix. The lack of child care and societies view on parental leave (for men at least) means, that generally speaking the woman stays home to take care of the child and later on moves on to a part time position thus earning less and having to rely on the partners income again.

redmerchant2 3y ago
I think that’s a good point but the idea your (male) partner has to make more seems silly. The core idea of finding a partner that is strictly better is the concern the article raises. If she makes 300k a year and he makes 150k a year, the studies suggest women would refuse to take that. But if we suppose they get together, even with the haircut in wages from taking time for childcare, they will still have a great standard of living.
- ryanwaggoner 3y ago
  I'm skeptical that the studies cover income that far above the median actually.

chongli 3y ago

I think it’ll sort itself out fairly quickly. Women who refuse to “date down” will find themselves getting older and lonelier. They’ll open themselves up to more potential partners because long term loneliness is much worse than status anxiety (and people tend to lose their status anxiety as they get older).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cjbgkagh 3y ago
I am not optimistic that it’ll sort itself out. In my experience spinsters get more radical and less agreeable, in effect double down on their beliefs. It’s like watching a train wreck that takes 30 years. I’ve seen both women and men become embittered over time and I don’t think any of them will recover.
- PoignardAzur 3y ago
  Yeah, bitterness has a way of sustaining itself. After a while being bitter becomes your primary coping mechanism, it gets harder to let go of it. I had a striking conversation with my dad recently, where he said that the thing that helped him get better was being alone, because he had nobody left to blame his problems on except himself. But some people can sustain the bitterness even alone!
dahwolf 3y ago
I don't think so. My anecdotal experience in life is that people tend to settle in their beliefs somewhere in their 30s, and will stick to it even if it's a type of self harm. Both men and women will turn bitter and simply opt-out for life. Not all, but many. Women that do this tend to be better off than men, as they have a type of alternative support network whilst many men do not.

majormajor 3y ago

> The education gap between men and women are growing. More women enroll and graduate from college then men. Many young men, mostly lower-middle class, (whether fairly or not) feel like the education system does not work for them. So, like, isn't the question "why"? Why do boys, particularly lower- or lower-middle class, not believe in the education system as much as their sisters? School sucks, work sucks, then you die. But that's not new. And it's not stopping the girls/women. So why aren't the boys doing what previous generations did? I don't know the answer, but just saying "they don't like it" is hard to action on. Are parents too indulgent with boys in a way they aren't with girls? Is boy-oriented media setting up more unrealistic expectations relative to girl-oriented stuff? Are there just that many boys who can't deal with a world where uncontrolled aggression is less tolerated? I haven't seen a really good thorough investigation of this. (I've seen lots of bad-faith "this is what happens when you leave the Bible behind and women don't have to serve their men" ones...) I'm also not sure how much "we" as a society should care in the aggregate, vs having empathy for in the specific. Things never stay static, the system (institutions, culture, and individuals) will likely adjust. It's sad an overachieving woman reaches the top and can't find the ideal person she had built up in her head. It's sad a man doesn't apply himself in school or to building his social skills can't find dates. But it's also great that that woman was able to do all that. And there are still countless happy relationships and marriages happening - and many of them eventually separate, but overall, it seems like there is less violence and misery than in the past.

blackbear_ 3y ago
A possible explanation is that most teachers in primary school are female, which creates an environment and behavioral expectations that favor girls, e.g.: - Teachers and the Gender Gaps in Student Achievement - https://jhr.uwpress.org/content/XLII/3/528 https://jhr.uwpress.org/content/XLII/3/528 - Gender differences in teachers’ perceptions of students’ temperament, educational competence, and teachability - https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2044-8279.2010.02017.x https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2044-8279.2010.02017.x
- majormajor 3y ago
  That seems weird though, right? Cause in the US teachers, especially for early-childhood, have been predominantly female since before this gap.

dahwolf 3y ago

"Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true." This independence remains to be seen. The assumption is that a higher education for women will structurally lead to complete financial independence across their life's path but I believe this to be a rosy view. First, for all but the top 10%, the cost of living is so high that it almost requires a partner. There goes your independence. Second, you have to make it to the end. Say you go at it alone, that means ~45 years of relentless full-time work, managing the 401K and nothing can happen under way, as there will be nobody to help. This is the existential stress that men have always faced in their provider role. The complete lack of optionality, zero tolerance for failure, and lack of any safety net. This is not to say that women can't handle this, I'm saying it remains to be seen. Third, whilst women may be highly educated, a huge portion of them work in administrative functions, NGOs, the like. Fields that are very exposed to the swings of the economy.

dahwolf 3y ago

Added bonus of selecting for the 0.01% of men: if you're extraordinarily lucky to secure him, you have a new problem: the man has options.

kwere 3y ago
Thats one thing I don't understand about hypergamy (dating app data proves it), why would a woman be in a situation in which she is easily the second, third wheel or worse
- dahwolf 3y ago
  Status signaling to other women, I imagine. But perhaps also media/social media fueling these unrealistic expectations and incorrectly normalizing them.
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  I think it's a direct representation of how unequal the power in society is. Being the 10th wife of a price is better than being the first wife of a commoner somewhere like Saudi Arabia (as an example - can pick any society with high power inequality) in terms of the chances of reproductive success of your offspring.

littlecranky67 3y ago

> But in 10-20 years women will out number men in many fields requiring higher education The irony is, that those white-collar higher education jobs might be the first to be replaced by AI, and in the end not result in high income. We might be looking at a future where a builder, plumber, craftsman etc. will be high up in income and status. I'm curious to see if women with high education but low income would suddenly be attracted to men with low (formal) education and high income.

kwere 3y ago
Because leftist women/men in "power cities" in the Coasts would be affected, I expect enormous regulations to protect them, unless strategically (against china) damaging.