4 ms·

My goodwill for this stuff is rapidly running out. You've got the already inflated cost of the goods or services, then taxes, then whatever "local fees" are req

My goodwill for this stuff is rapidly running out. You've got the already inflated cost of the goods or services, then taxes, then whatever "local fees" are required, then the venue or restaurant adds on "service fees" on top of that...and then you're asked to tip, or to donate to a good cause, etc. Lots of small businesses in our area have kept the "fair wage and wellness fee" they added during COVID times and there's a long paragraph of text on the bill that explains why it's important and how it's helping them pay staff, yadda yadda. Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. I enjoy a good meal and a good show, and I am happy to support local businesses. But a $5.25 latte and a $24 pizza and $14 for a salad that is only three pieces of lettuce or a $100 ticket that becomes $175 after fees...I'm starting to opt-out entirely.

salad-tycoon 3y ago
We’ve opted out and couldn’t be happier. Just do things at home, better quality, less money and no pressure.
EliRivers 3y ago
Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Is that not the only way it can work? Unless a business is being subsidised by someone as a hobby or Softbank is pouring money into it for it to be set on fire (more charitably in some kind of growth phase where they can stomach taking a loss for years), then the income from the customers surely has to cover the costs.
- frumper 3y ago
  Just price it in. The reaction to all the point of sale fees are transparent pricing laws which will just make the business have to calculate and track all of these silly fees, add them up and then display the final price to the consumer before they choose to buy it.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Except that tips won't even count as those "fees", because they're technically a gift from the customer directly to the employee. That's a big part of why I get so angry about this. This practice has subverted a good and very nice human act into a something demanded. It strips out all of the value of tipping.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Wages must be built into the costs, otherwise the owner maintains their margin subsidized by the customer through tips. Otherwise, the "true costs" are what the customer pays + tips. It's resort fees for services!
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Yes (generally), but the $100 ticket would be better advertised as $175, and the $24 pizza should have been listed as $24 on the menu, not $16 (+10% tax, +$2 fair wage fee, +25% tip). </european-pov>
- manuelmoreale 3y ago
  Usually running costs are built into the price of something. It would feel weird if Netflix was asking you to add a tip to help pay for the developers after charging you for a subscription. As a business owner you set the price of a product or a service while factoring in all costs, including wages. Tipping should not be mandatory and if it is then it means something is profoundly wrong with the way the specific industry works.
- blueridge 3y ago
  If you're starting a business you need the resources and the financial fundamentals in place to keep the doors open. If you're renting a space you can't afford, or you're spending beyond your means for supplies, or your menu is too broad, or your opening hours don't make sense...you can only compensate by increasing costs for so long—people will go somewhere else. "I really like the food, I like the space, but I can't keep buying a $15 bottle of juice and a $22 sandwich with a single slice of meat, and I don't know why I'm on the hook for all of these extra fees..." One of our local eateries recently closed their doors because they just couldn't make it work. They ruined goodwill with customers by substantially increasing the cost of everything, every few weeks: sandwiches, drinks, small baked goods, small bags of chips, etc. On top of that, they added one service charge after the next, and it always came with a plea to help them stay open. But they made a lot of bad decisions along the way, like opening up a fancy organic eatery in a part of town with no foot traffic and no parking, by taking on even more debt to expand their space and open up another pop-up store before they had got the basics rights with their first location. Fewer and fewer people came to visit and that was that.
diogocp 3y ago
> Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Who else do you expect to pick up the tab?
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago
  Yea this mindset always confuses me. If you don't tip the employees, the prices will go up, and you'll pay the same price either way. Where do people think the money that goes to employees comes from if not ultimately from customers pockets?
  - achates 3y ago
    I agree but I just want to know the price up front. If they have to sell the sandwich for $12 then put $12 on the sign, don't put $9 and then try to pressure me into a $3 tip.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    It's the hiding of the actual price that pisses people off, but not enough to prevent them from using the service obviously; there's a reason that hidden fees are a dark pattern that I'm sure date back to antiquity.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      It's not even the hiding that pisses me off. It's the manipulation.
  - hn92726819 3y ago
    This assumes that money is distributed evenly though. Nothing stops restaurants from lowering server pay, increasing prices, and just taking profits to themselves. I'd prefer no tips, an increase in price, and no hidden bs fees/tips Edit: evenly meaning an increase in prices proportionally increases employee pay
    - dmz73 3y ago
tomcam 3y ago
> Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. This is all business everywhere (other than the trillions of dollars exchanged in corrupt government contracts).
- JohnFen 3y ago
  But most businesses are honest about how they go about it. Abusing tipping like this is the opposite of that. Not to mention it puts customers and employees into an adversarial relationship, and manages to be an insult to both the employees and the customers. Just be honest, pay the workers what they should be paid, and price the goods and services accordingly.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    > Just be honest, pay the workers what they should be paid, and price the goods and services accordingly. HELL YES I would much, much rather pay more and know the staff were getting real wages. This is complicated by the fact that a large number of FOH workers prefer the $2 hourly plus tips because they don't disclose most of the tips on their taxes.
darth_avocado 3y ago
My favorite one was this one time I went out in NYC for a pizza and a beer. The pizza was $24 for 2 slices (which tbh is a lot, especially in NYC) and the beer was $8. I gave the server a $50 and he didn’t come back with the change. And when I asked for the change, he made passive aggressive comments. The best part is that I still left a 10% tip and he came back asking if everything was alright, making a point to let me know the tip was less. My goodwill has long run out because it’s not just the businesses adding the pressure, the people in the service industry are behaving in a way where generous tips are expected for bad and rude service.

salad-tycoon 3y ago

We’ve opted out and couldn’t be happier. Just do things at home, better quality, less money and no pressure.

EliRivers 3y ago

Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Is that not the only way it can work? Unless a business is being subsidised by someone as a hobby or Softbank is pouring money into it for it to be set on fire (more charitably in some kind of growth phase where they can stomach taking a loss for years), then the income from the customers surely has to cover the costs.

frumper 3y ago
Just price it in. The reaction to all the point of sale fees are transparent pricing laws which will just make the business have to calculate and track all of these silly fees, add them up and then display the final price to the consumer before they choose to buy it.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Except that tips won't even count as those "fees", because they're technically a gift from the customer directly to the employee. That's a big part of why I get so angry about this. This practice has subverted a good and very nice human act into a something demanded. It strips out all of the value of tipping.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Wages must be built into the costs, otherwise the owner maintains their margin subsidized by the customer through tips. Otherwise, the "true costs" are what the customer pays + tips. It's resort fees for services!
Symbiote 3y ago
Yes (generally), but the $100 ticket would be better advertised as $175, and the $24 pizza should have been listed as $24 on the menu, not $16 (+10% tax, +$2 fair wage fee, +25% tip). </european-pov>
manuelmoreale 3y ago
Usually running costs are built into the price of something. It would feel weird if Netflix was asking you to add a tip to help pay for the developers after charging you for a subscription. As a business owner you set the price of a product or a service while factoring in all costs, including wages. Tipping should not be mandatory and if it is then it means something is profoundly wrong with the way the specific industry works.
blueridge 3y ago
If you're starting a business you need the resources and the financial fundamentals in place to keep the doors open. If you're renting a space you can't afford, or you're spending beyond your means for supplies, or your menu is too broad, or your opening hours don't make sense...you can only compensate by increasing costs for so long—people will go somewhere else. "I really like the food, I like the space, but I can't keep buying a $15 bottle of juice and a $22 sandwich with a single slice of meat, and I don't know why I'm on the hook for all of these extra fees..." One of our local eateries recently closed their doors because they just couldn't make it work. They ruined goodwill with customers by substantially increasing the cost of everything, every few weeks: sandwiches, drinks, small baked goods, small bags of chips, etc. On top of that, they added one service charge after the next, and it always came with a plea to help them stay open. But they made a lot of bad decisions along the way, like opening up a fancy organic eatery in a part of town with no foot traffic and no parking, by taking on even more debt to expand their space and open up another pop-up store before they had got the basics rights with their first location. Fewer and fewer people came to visit and that was that.

diogocp 3y ago

> Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Who else do you expect to pick up the tab?

2023throwawayy 3y ago
Yea this mindset always confuses me. If you don't tip the employees, the prices will go up, and you'll pay the same price either way. Where do people think the money that goes to employees comes from if not ultimately from customers pockets?
- achates 3y ago
  I agree but I just want to know the price up front. If they have to sell the sandwich for $12 then put $12 on the sign, don't put $9 and then try to pressure me into a $3 tip.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  It's the hiding of the actual price that pisses people off, but not enough to prevent them from using the service obviously; there's a reason that hidden fees are a dark pattern that I'm sure date back to antiquity.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    It's not even the hiding that pisses me off. It's the manipulation.
- hn92726819 3y ago
  This assumes that money is distributed evenly though. Nothing stops restaurants from lowering server pay, increasing prices, and just taking profits to themselves. I'd prefer no tips, an increase in price, and no hidden bs fees/tips Edit: evenly meaning an increase in prices proportionally increases employee pay
  - dmz73 3y ago

tomcam 3y ago

> Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. This is all business everywhere (other than the trillions of dollars exchanged in corrupt government contracts).

JohnFen 3y ago
But most businesses are honest about how they go about it. Abusing tipping like this is the opposite of that. Not to mention it puts customers and employees into an adversarial relationship, and manages to be an insult to both the employees and the customers. Just be honest, pay the workers what they should be paid, and price the goods and services accordingly.
- tomcam 3y ago
  > Just be honest, pay the workers what they should be paid, and price the goods and services accordingly. HELL YES I would much, much rather pay more and know the staff were getting real wages. This is complicated by the fact that a large number of FOH workers prefer the $2 hourly plus tips because they don't disclose most of the tips on their taxes.

darth_avocado 3y ago

My favorite one was this one time I went out in NYC for a pizza and a beer. The pizza was $24 for 2 slices (which tbh is a lot, especially in NYC) and the beer was $8. I gave the server a $50 and he didn’t come back with the change. And when I asked for the change, he made passive aggressive comments. The best part is that I still left a 10% tip and he came back asking if everything was alright, making a point to let me know the tip was less. My goodwill has long run out because it’s not just the businesses adding the pressure, the people in the service industry are behaving in a way where generous tips are expected for bad and rude service.