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It's so weird that this revenue generating app is the poster child for Reddit admins abusing third parties or whatever. They literally made money for years, alm

It's so weird that this revenue generating app is the poster child for Reddit admins abusing third parties or whatever. They literally made money for years, almost completely unbothered by Reddit inc, with their own ads and subscription model. I just don't get it, this is not some open source app getting mauled by a corporate behemoth. Apollo probably made more profit from Reddit than Reddit itself. And yes I know, Reddit could have rolled their own ads in the API but... Literally no one does that. Reddit ads are already extremely cheap (read, worthless to advertisers) as it is. No one would trust an ad network that has no control over how it displays and tracks said apps. I run Adblock everywhere so I'm not particularly sad about ads being worthless, but it still matters for Reddit inc. Now obviously apollo was well within its rights to profit from their app but you can't have your cake and eat it too: you can't expect to generate profit from another business unilaterally forever and be shocked that they won't allow it. Now before someone calls me a shill, I will literally never use Reddit after the API change since for me Reddit is just Reddit Is Fun. Without it, the whole website is unusable. And I'm extremely critical of Reddit in general. But this is just weird, this is a business deal that has turned into some sort of martyrdom. As people have said countless times in other situations where people had issues with reddit; just use another platform. (Or at least advocate for open source apps API access. For me the ideal solution would be apps with a bring your own API key model. And I really think there are two discussions that have been getting mixed up: commercial use for the API like Apollo's and general access for third parties. One I don't care about, the other is crucial to me using Reddit.)

graphe 3y ago
This sounds like every apple product, like Watson getting Sherlocked. Except reddit didn't even make Sherlock.
deleted 3y ago
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ink_13 3y ago
The choices are not just "third party apps get a free lunch" or "third-party apps pay $millions". Even Selig admits there's a middle ground where API pricing is reasonable. Or maybe just restricted to Reddit Gold accounts. Or Reddit inserts must-show ads into API responses. Et cetera. The point is there's a middle ground to be had, but rather than negotiating for an outcome both sides can live with, Reddit is just choking third-party apps (many of which provide tooling for moderating at scale or enable accessibility) to death.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  What would be the middle ground here? As I said I'm not sure inserting ads in the API would be feasible. And the quoted figure of 2.50$ per user per month would be reasonable to charge for a commercial user , I think. Yes, it would mean every apollo user would have to pay but that's the thing ; they are monetizing the app already. I'm not sure what would be more reasonable but I'm also sure that the timelines suck for commercial apps to figure it out. But it was still bound to happen, and to me I don't see what's the middle ground that the dev wants (less than 2.50$?). Again though, I'm sure there are nuances here. But this is just a business negotiation between two businesses in this specific case. I don't really care about what's feasible for Apollo as a business, what matters more is how non commercial usage is dealt with. For now, and correct me if I'm wrong, the API limits will still be generous for individual users (so mods, etc). They just have to generate their own key. Did I get that wrong?
  - ink_13 3y ago
    > Did I get that wrong? Yes. You can't just insert your own API key into the app of your choice.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      Is it because of an inherent limitation to the API? Would it be possible to create an app that takes user API keys?
ditch_baby 3y ago
I think the sense of martyrdom comes from the fact that these changes directly affect how millions of users spend large chunks of their day, which is itself the location where these discussions are happening. Stack that with the very visible corporatization of many of their other favorite websites, and you see this emotional backlash. The internet is just different now.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Apollo probably made more profit from Reddit than Reddit itself. that's not saying much when Spez outright said reddit isn't profitable. Yes, a few devs working on an API scaper is cheaper than 2000 employees worldwide, for a company HQ'd in San Fransisco on top fo that (I still can't imagine what reddit needs with 2000 employees). meanwhile I don't exactly think Spez is surviving paycheck to paycheck himself. If he's not already, he'll easily clear tends of millions of dollars of net worth when Reddit goes public. Or at least, that's what I would have said 4-5 months ago. >you can't expect to generate profit from another business unilaterally forever and be shocked that they won't allow it. on the flip side, I don't think Christian is suddenly broke either. Probably not "I can retire in prauge" levels of finances, but he's definitely made a lot of money. But he's under no obligations to play ball with Reddit, especially when reddit is taking the ball home. I don't see this as him leeching off reddit when you take into account how many users his app brought to the business. Just like how you said RiF is your Reddit, I'm sure Apollo is others' reddit. >As people have said countless times in other situations where people had issues with reddit; just use another platform. I agree and am. But that's tangential to this article. Christian isn't exactly trying to kill reddit nor pitch his next Apollo app for the next big platform. He said his dream scenario is to wake up and see the API rates halved and he'll be happy and keep Apollo running. He clearly doesn't want reddit dead. But as is: he seems more or less done.

graphe 3y ago

This sounds like every apple product, like Watson getting Sherlocked. Except reddit didn't even make Sherlock.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ink_13 3y ago

The choices are not just "third party apps get a free lunch" or "third-party apps pay $millions". Even Selig admits there's a middle ground where API pricing is reasonable. Or maybe just restricted to Reddit Gold accounts. Or Reddit inserts must-show ads into API responses. Et cetera. The point is there's a middle ground to be had, but rather than negotiating for an outcome both sides can live with, Reddit is just choking third-party apps (many of which provide tooling for moderating at scale or enable accessibility) to death.

mardifoufs 3y ago
What would be the middle ground here? As I said I'm not sure inserting ads in the API would be feasible. And the quoted figure of 2.50$ per user per month would be reasonable to charge for a commercial user , I think. Yes, it would mean every apollo user would have to pay but that's the thing ; they are monetizing the app already. I'm not sure what would be more reasonable but I'm also sure that the timelines suck for commercial apps to figure it out. But it was still bound to happen, and to me I don't see what's the middle ground that the dev wants (less than 2.50$?). Again though, I'm sure there are nuances here. But this is just a business negotiation between two businesses in this specific case. I don't really care about what's feasible for Apollo as a business, what matters more is how non commercial usage is dealt with. For now, and correct me if I'm wrong, the API limits will still be generous for individual users (so mods, etc). They just have to generate their own key. Did I get that wrong?
- ink_13 3y ago
  > Did I get that wrong? Yes. You can't just insert your own API key into the app of your choice.
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Is it because of an inherent limitation to the API? Would it be possible to create an app that takes user API keys?

ditch_baby 3y ago

I think the sense of martyrdom comes from the fact that these changes directly affect how millions of users spend large chunks of their day, which is itself the location where these discussions are happening. Stack that with the very visible corporatization of many of their other favorite websites, and you see this emotional backlash. The internet is just different now.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>Apollo probably made more profit from Reddit than Reddit itself. that's not saying much when Spez outright said reddit isn't profitable. Yes, a few devs working on an API scaper is cheaper than 2000 employees worldwide, for a company HQ'd in San Fransisco on top fo that (I still can't imagine what reddit needs with 2000 employees). meanwhile I don't exactly think Spez is surviving paycheck to paycheck himself. If he's not already, he'll easily clear tends of millions of dollars of net worth when Reddit goes public. Or at least, that's what I would have said 4-5 months ago. >you can't expect to generate profit from another business unilaterally forever and be shocked that they won't allow it. on the flip side, I don't think Christian is suddenly broke either. Probably not "I can retire in prauge" levels of finances, but he's definitely made a lot of money. But he's under no obligations to play ball with Reddit, especially when reddit is taking the ball home. I don't see this as him leeching off reddit when you take into account how many users his app brought to the business. Just like how you said RiF is your Reddit, I'm sure Apollo is others' reddit. >As people have said countless times in other situations where people had issues with reddit; just use another platform. I agree and am. But that's tangential to this article. Christian isn't exactly trying to kill reddit nor pitch his next Apollo app for the next big platform. He said his dream scenario is to wake up and see the API rates halved and he'll be happy and keep Apollo running. He clearly doesn't want reddit dead. But as is: he seems more or less done.