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> So the solution is easy for any laywer to provide - just shut down the business. I don't really agree with that take. He's already talked about what happens

by flutas 3y ago

> So the solution is easy for any laywer to provide - just shut down the business. I don't really agree with that take. He's already talked about what happens now, and it includes refunds for unused subscription time. > I've been talking to my rep at Apple, and over the next few weeks my plan is to release something similar to what Tweetbot did (Paul has been incredibly helpful in all of this) where folks can decide if they want a pro-rated refund on any existing time left in their subscription as Apollo will not be able to afford to continue it, or they can decline the refund if they're feeling kind and have enjoyed their time with Apollo. > For the curious, refunding all existing subscriptions by my estimates will cost me about $250,000.

Sakos 3y ago
Based on what he said, it's clear that trying to run Apollo while servicing these users would cost him hundreds of thousands more than that with no guarantee that he'd be able to make up the difference over time. So he is just shutting down the business. Even if he's legally obligated to refund the users it's still cheaper than what it would cost in API fees.
- flutas 3y ago
  Agree, but the parent comment was coming across as it's a "cut and run" situation. For anyone curious about what he said on trying to run everything as a paid sub quickly: > One option many have suggested is to simply increase the price of Apollo to offset costs. The issue here is that Apollo has approximately 50,000 yearly subscribers at the moment. On average they paid $10/year many months ago, a price I chose based on operating costs I had at the time (server fees, icon design, having a part-time server engineer). Those users are owed service as they already prepaid for a year, but starting July 1st will (in the best case scenario) cost an additional $1/month each in Reddit fees. That's $50,000 in sudden monthly fee that will start incurring in 30 days. > So you see, even if I increase the price for new subscribers, I still have those many users to contend with. If I wait until their subscription expires, slowly month after month there will be less of them. First month $50,000, second month maybe $45,000, then $40,000, etc. until everything has expired, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It would be cheaper to simply refund users. > I hope you can recognize how that's an enormous amount of money to suddenly start incurring with 30 days notice. Even if I added 12,000 new subscribers at $5/month (an enormous feat given the short notice), after Apple's fees that would just be enough to break even. > Going from a free API for 8 years to suddenly incurring massive costs is not something I can feasibly make work with only 30 days. That's a lot of users to migrate, plans to create, things to test, and to get through app review, and it's just not economically feasible. It's much cheaper for me to simply shut down.
VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
I'm astounded that he was actually able to run a business pulling in $500,000 a year in subscriptions without ever having to pay the actual platform the users are "subscribing" to a dime. And he's been doing this for what? 8 years? No wonder he doesn't care about shutting it down. It was a free lunch the whole time.
- flutas 3y ago
  I wouldn't say it was "free lunch" but it was definitely a benefit for him. He still had costs (Apple Dev Fee, Server Costs, Server Engineer Salary, Artists costs for the various icons.)
- graphe 3y ago
  ISPs are a scam because they don't even pay the internet or make it just connect to it.
- fuzzylightbulb 3y ago
  They aren't "subscribing" to the platform: they're engaging with it via a premium toolset that is not provided by the platform. The platform benefits because the engagement, content creation, moderation, etc. that the users provide is the ONLY thing of value on the platform.
- paxys 3y ago
  $500-600K/year in revenue. Take away 1. app store fees (30%) 2. income taxes 3. hosting costs 4. contracting costs (he employs at least one part time engineer) 5. design costs 6. health insurance + other payroll taxes, and you are left with a small percentage of that as net income. Now add in the hours of his life he has presumably put into this app for the last 8+ years. I'm going to go ahead and guess that it was more than 40 hr/5 day weeks If you consider his skills as a premier iOS/full stack developer, simply getting a job in big tech would be a wayyyy better option for him financially. Heck he could pocket $500K/yr at Google/Meta in straight salary without any of the associated fuss.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
paxys 3y ago
It's not some hot take but exactly what the developer said in the interview. Continuing to provide service to users who have already paid would be too expensive, and so shutting the app down (and giving optional refunds) is the cheaper way out.

by flutas 3y ago

Sakos 3y ago

Based on what he said, it's clear that trying to run Apollo while servicing these users would cost him hundreds of thousands more than that with no guarantee that he'd be able to make up the difference over time. So he is just shutting down the business. Even if he's legally obligated to refund the users it's still cheaper than what it would cost in API fees.

flutas 3y ago
Agree, but the parent comment was coming across as it's a "cut and run" situation. For anyone curious about what he said on trying to run everything as a paid sub quickly: > One option many have suggested is to simply increase the price of Apollo to offset costs. The issue here is that Apollo has approximately 50,000 yearly subscribers at the moment. On average they paid $10/year many months ago, a price I chose based on operating costs I had at the time (server fees, icon design, having a part-time server engineer). Those users are owed service as they already prepaid for a year, but starting July 1st will (in the best case scenario) cost an additional $1/month each in Reddit fees. That's $50,000 in sudden monthly fee that will start incurring in 30 days. > So you see, even if I increase the price for new subscribers, I still have those many users to contend with. If I wait until their subscription expires, slowly month after month there will be less of them. First month $50,000, second month maybe $45,000, then $40,000, etc. until everything has expired, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It would be cheaper to simply refund users. > I hope you can recognize how that's an enormous amount of money to suddenly start incurring with 30 days notice. Even if I added 12,000 new subscribers at $5/month (an enormous feat given the short notice), after Apple's fees that would just be enough to break even. > Going from a free API for 8 years to suddenly incurring massive costs is not something I can feasibly make work with only 30 days. That's a lot of users to migrate, plans to create, things to test, and to get through app review, and it's just not economically feasible. It's much cheaper for me to simply shut down.

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

I'm astounded that he was actually able to run a business pulling in $500,000 a year in subscriptions without ever having to pay the actual platform the users are "subscribing" to a dime. And he's been doing this for what? 8 years? No wonder he doesn't care about shutting it down. It was a free lunch the whole time.

flutas 3y ago
I wouldn't say it was "free lunch" but it was definitely a benefit for him. He still had costs (Apple Dev Fee, Server Costs, Server Engineer Salary, Artists costs for the various icons.)
graphe 3y ago
ISPs are a scam because they don't even pay the internet or make it just connect to it.
fuzzylightbulb 3y ago
They aren't "subscribing" to the platform: they're engaging with it via a premium toolset that is not provided by the platform. The platform benefits because the engagement, content creation, moderation, etc. that the users provide is the ONLY thing of value on the platform.
paxys 3y ago
$500-600K/year in revenue. Take away 1. app store fees (30%) 2. income taxes 3. hosting costs 4. contracting costs (he employs at least one part time engineer) 5. design costs 6. health insurance + other payroll taxes, and you are left with a small percentage of that as net income. Now add in the hours of his life he has presumably put into this app for the last 8+ years. I'm going to go ahead and guess that it was more than 40 hr/5 day weeks If you consider his skills as a premier iOS/full stack developer, simply getting a job in big tech would be a wayyyy better option for him financially. Heck he could pocket $500K/yr at Google/Meta in straight salary without any of the associated fuss.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago

paxys 3y ago

It's not some hot take but exactly what the developer said in the interview. Continuing to provide service to users who have already paid would be too expensive, and so shutting the app down (and giving optional refunds) is the cheaper way out.