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Why does there need to be a paid API, when reddit provides all of the content over a free HTTP API to user agents already? Are these apps more than just a custo

Why does there need to be a paid API, when reddit provides all of the content over a free HTTP API to user agents already? Are these apps more than just a custom user agent?

paddw 3y ago
The free API is going away
- wtallis 3y ago
  I think he was trying to be clever by referring to the standard web interface as the free HTTP API, which is true to a limited extent. It's a poorly-designed and unstable API. The use of the unpopular term "user agent" may have made it harder to understand, but I appreciate almost any opportunity to bring that term back, because it has important implications that "web browser" lacks.
- googlryas 3y ago
  The free HTTP API I'm talking about is just GET / HTTP/1.0...aka the web interface offered by reddit.com on port 80 or 443
- unmole 3y ago
  It isn't. > Rate limits for the free tier > All others will continue to access the Reddit Data API without cost, in accordance with our Developer Terms, at this time. https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_upda...
nlarew 3y ago
There are two Reddit APIs - the public REST API and a private GraphQL API which limits access. Third-party apps use the REST API and the Reddit website/app use GQL. For a hobby project you could maybe get away with scraping a GQL bearer token and issuing requests as if you were an official Reddit client. Or you could even request the HTML and scrape that. At the scale of these third party apps that approach just wouldn't work.
- koolba 3y ago
  > At the scale of these third party apps that approach just wouldn't work. Has there been any App Store apps that go with this approach? As long as Reddit provides some API accessible to a non-logged in user on the web, there’s going to be a way to scrape it. If you push that scraping into the start of the app then it’s be distributed without any clear way of blocking it. You could even have the app fetch “how to” updates from a a central site rather than pushing app updates so you don’t have to wait for App Store approvals to get around scraping updates. We could call the end user’s program for accessing the site a “user agent” as it acts on behalf of the user to fetch and display the content that the user wants to see, in the manner the user wants to see it.
  - graphe 3y ago
    They will now. Before people were just polite to use Reddit's API. I'm sure there will be plenty of 3p on Android that scrape that are a work of love off GitHub soon.
    - brokenmachine 3y ago
      It would be cool if the big 3p app developers would make their apps point to a configurable different API location, then people could set up their own docker scraper instances to provide the API for their app. It could be an open-ish format, then you could potentially support alternate sites like HN as well.
  - thejsa 3y ago
    Unfortunately, the App Store (and Play Store) rules ban this sort of thing — any access to third party web services needs to be in line with their terms of service.
    - koolba 3y ago
      That really sucks. Maybe what we need is something more general, a web browser that doesn't enforce CORS / XSS / CSP. So you could frame up an entirely new UI on any site you'd like that.
ladberg 3y ago
The straight answer is that ads are embedded in the "HTTP API" and the vast majority of browser users don't have adblock, and Reddit can't force ads on any API users (except through the official app).
- TillE 3y ago
  > and Reddit can't force ads on any API users Why not though? Seems really straightforward to serve ads over the API and enforce any display guidelines on third-party apps, since there are only a handful of significant apps anyway.
  - mgsouth 3y ago
    It would require some very careful system design and lots of trust of the third-party apps. (It's been a while since I was in the middle of this, so stuff may have changed a bit. But in general...) Ads are usually not served up by the application provider (Reddit). Instead, they embed URLs given to them by their customers (ad agencies). If the app is browser-based they'll wrap them in some javascript that also calls app provider endpoints and manages clicks on the ads. They do this for a few reasons: 1) There's a huge amount of overhead to the app provider if they try to manage and serve the customer's ad creatives. 2) There's a lot of hassle for the customer; they have to go through the app provider to make any changes to the ad media. 3) Nobody trusts anybody else; this way the customer knows exactly how many times their ad was shown (and if video possibly how long it rolled), and the app provider still knows how many times the ad was displayed vs. just offered to the end user's device, and what the click-throughs were. The app provider could pass the customer URLs and the provider's wrapping endpoints to third-party apps. But they'd need to think good and hard about all possible fraud games, and would need to trust the third-party app to perform the complex dance properly. Examples: 1) what if the third-party messes up and doesn't call the click-through endpoint? Or sometimes does? Or calls it when they shouldn't? Click-through accounting is a huge deal with very large financial ramifications. 2) How do you enforce that the proper ads are shown in the proper context? If you control the app then you can sell above-the-fold vs. below-the-fold spots etc. 3) How do you control that the ads are actually shown when they should be? Not every link given will result in an impression (below-the-fold again). 4) Even if you completely trust the third-party app's motives, how do you monitor and debug the end-to-end flow? 5) How do you convince your advertisers that's everything is under control? A customer is probably going to have fewer warm-and-fuzzies with third-party impressions, and very well might discount their value.

Why does there need to be a paid API, when reddit provides all of the content over a free HTTP API to user agents already? Are these apps more than just a custom user agent?

paddw 3y ago

The free API is going away

wtallis 3y ago
I think he was trying to be clever by referring to the standard web interface as the free HTTP API, which is true to a limited extent. It's a poorly-designed and unstable API. The use of the unpopular term "user agent" may have made it harder to understand, but I appreciate almost any opportunity to bring that term back, because it has important implications that "web browser" lacks.
googlryas 3y ago
The free HTTP API I'm talking about is just GET / HTTP/1.0...aka the web interface offered by reddit.com on port 80 or 443
unmole 3y ago
It isn't. > Rate limits for the free tier > All others will continue to access the Reddit Data API without cost, in accordance with our Developer Terms, at this time. https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_upda...

nlarew 3y ago

There are two Reddit APIs - the public REST API and a private GraphQL API which limits access. Third-party apps use the REST API and the Reddit website/app use GQL. For a hobby project you could maybe get away with scraping a GQL bearer token and issuing requests as if you were an official Reddit client. Or you could even request the HTML and scrape that. At the scale of these third party apps that approach just wouldn't work.

koolba 3y ago
> At the scale of these third party apps that approach just wouldn't work. Has there been any App Store apps that go with this approach? As long as Reddit provides some API accessible to a non-logged in user on the web, there’s going to be a way to scrape it. If you push that scraping into the start of the app then it’s be distributed without any clear way of blocking it. You could even have the app fetch “how to” updates from a a central site rather than pushing app updates so you don’t have to wait for App Store approvals to get around scraping updates. We could call the end user’s program for accessing the site a “user agent” as it acts on behalf of the user to fetch and display the content that the user wants to see, in the manner the user wants to see it.
- graphe 3y ago
  They will now. Before people were just polite to use Reddit's API. I'm sure there will be plenty of 3p on Android that scrape that are a work of love off GitHub soon.
  - brokenmachine 3y ago
    It would be cool if the big 3p app developers would make their apps point to a configurable different API location, then people could set up their own docker scraper instances to provide the API for their app. It could be an open-ish format, then you could potentially support alternate sites like HN as well.
- thejsa 3y ago
  Unfortunately, the App Store (and Play Store) rules ban this sort of thing — any access to third party web services needs to be in line with their terms of service.
  - koolba 3y ago
    That really sucks. Maybe what we need is something more general, a web browser that doesn't enforce CORS / XSS / CSP. So you could frame up an entirely new UI on any site you'd like that.

ladberg 3y ago

The straight answer is that ads are embedded in the "HTTP API" and the vast majority of browser users don't have adblock, and Reddit can't force ads on any API users (except through the official app).

TillE 3y ago
> and Reddit can't force ads on any API users Why not though? Seems really straightforward to serve ads over the API and enforce any display guidelines on third-party apps, since there are only a handful of significant apps anyway.
- mgsouth 3y ago
  It would require some very careful system design and lots of trust of the third-party apps. (It's been a while since I was in the middle of this, so stuff may have changed a bit. But in general...) Ads are usually not served up by the application provider (Reddit). Instead, they embed URLs given to them by their customers (ad agencies). If the app is browser-based they'll wrap them in some javascript that also calls app provider endpoints and manages clicks on the ads. They do this for a few reasons: 1) There's a huge amount of overhead to the app provider if they try to manage and serve the customer's ad creatives. 2) There's a lot of hassle for the customer; they have to go through the app provider to make any changes to the ad media. 3) Nobody trusts anybody else; this way the customer knows exactly how many times their ad was shown (and if video possibly how long it rolled), and the app provider still knows how many times the ad was displayed vs. just offered to the end user's device, and what the click-throughs were. The app provider could pass the customer URLs and the provider's wrapping endpoints to third-party apps. But they'd need to think good and hard about all possible fraud games, and would need to trust the third-party app to perform the complex dance properly. Examples: 1) what if the third-party messes up and doesn't call the click-through endpoint? Or sometimes does? Or calls it when they shouldn't? Click-through accounting is a huge deal with very large financial ramifications. 2) How do you enforce that the proper ads are shown in the proper context? If you control the app then you can sell above-the-fold vs. below-the-fold spots etc. 3) How do you control that the ads are actually shown when they should be? Not every link given will result in an impression (below-the-fold again). 4) Even if you completely trust the third-party app's motives, how do you monitor and debug the end-to-end flow? 5) How do you convince your advertisers that's everything is under control? A customer is probably going to have fewer warm-and-fuzzies with third-party impressions, and very well might discount their value.