4 ms·

> The real tension in the US, rural vs urban (not red vs blue) As usual, it depends. For example, out west the tension is with water rights. All other politic

> The real tension in the US, rural vs urban (not red vs blue) As usual, it depends. For example, out west the tension is with water rights. All other political issues are like molehills to the mountain that is water. To be clear, the western US states aren't running out of water, they are running out of cheap water. Usually, this pit the mountains against the farmers/ranchers, but it affects the whole population of a state in changing and varied ways. Divides are formed and forgotten every 20 years or so. So, no, the real tensions aren't in the US's population centering methods, it's in dozens of different ways at dozens of different times and places. Thinking that ~350M people can be divided in any black-white manner for any length of time is a failure of imagination.

bumby 3y ago
Devils advocate: isn't this just the same rural/urban divide illustrated through a different lens? It could be similarly portrayed as rural agriculture water rights vs. city dwellers water rights. Both want cheap water. Both point to the unsustainable practices of the other regarding water usage.
- Balgair 3y ago
  Sometimes yes, often no. In CA, there is a huge North-South divide when it comes to water. Northern CA constantly complains about LA 'stealing' all the water. In this case, it's urban vs urban. In CO, it's rural mountain areas where the water comes from versus the rural plains ranchers where the water is needed. Frontrange cities mostly have their own water rights figured out, mostly. In UT, it's just a hell of a mess and everyone is angry at everyone else and the Great Salt Lake becomes ever more that little brine pond over there. Then you add in all the compacts along the Colorado and everyone just has more to fight about. I guess you can sorta squint and say it's urban v. rural in some cases. And that would only be due to the square mileage per capita in the definitions. But, it's so much more than that and so much more complicated and legalistic and messy. The only common thread in the western US is water and how there just isn't enough of it for cheap.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Thanks for explaining. My anecdotal experience is from talking to people in NM, which may be different than the dynamics you're describing. E.g., as rural agriculture has grown, the Rio Grande is dry for longer and longer periods when it used to flow year-around decades ago. Residential construction has also grown fast, with an emphasis on water-hungry non-native species. >The only common thread in the western US is water and how there just isn't enough of it for cheap. Isn't this specifically because agricultural water is disproportionately (severely) discounted? I.e., it is extremely cheap for agriculture, which drives them to use more water, especially on crops that wouldn't otherwise be well-suited to that climate. Which leads to non-agricultural water to disproportionately more costly. I've read on HN that 80% of water in the west is used for agriculture, which would seem to confirm this dynamic.
    - Balgair 3y ago
      The cost structure and usage defies any simple explanation. Meaning that it's not easy to tie up in a HN comment. Honestly, each waterway can have it's own rules and it's own rights. In CO, until recently, you weren't able to collect rainwater from your own roof, as that water was already earmarked for the right's holder of the water the second it touched the ground. They've changed that and are more in line with other states, but such strange little provisions and regulations exist in other manners all over the US West. I wouldn't doubt your stats on water usage though, 80% is the right ballpark. But again, that system is the result of a bazillion little laws and regulations that would each have their day in court.
      - bumby 3y ago
        It's interesting to have learning in various parts of the country as it pertains to property rights. The West, in particular, seems strange in terms of mineral and water rights compared to other regions. I'm assuming it's an artifact of the frontier culture.

bumby 3y ago

Devils advocate: isn't this just the same rural/urban divide illustrated through a different lens? It could be similarly portrayed as rural agriculture water rights vs. city dwellers water rights. Both want cheap water. Both point to the unsustainable practices of the other regarding water usage.

Balgair 3y ago
Sometimes yes, often no. In CA, there is a huge North-South divide when it comes to water. Northern CA constantly complains about LA 'stealing' all the water. In this case, it's urban vs urban. In CO, it's rural mountain areas where the water comes from versus the rural plains ranchers where the water is needed. Frontrange cities mostly have their own water rights figured out, mostly. In UT, it's just a hell of a mess and everyone is angry at everyone else and the Great Salt Lake becomes ever more that little brine pond over there. Then you add in all the compacts along the Colorado and everyone just has more to fight about. I guess you can sorta squint and say it's urban v. rural in some cases. And that would only be due to the square mileage per capita in the definitions. But, it's so much more than that and so much more complicated and legalistic and messy. The only common thread in the western US is water and how there just isn't enough of it for cheap.
- bumby 3y ago
  Thanks for explaining. My anecdotal experience is from talking to people in NM, which may be different than the dynamics you're describing. E.g., as rural agriculture has grown, the Rio Grande is dry for longer and longer periods when it used to flow year-around decades ago. Residential construction has also grown fast, with an emphasis on water-hungry non-native species. >The only common thread in the western US is water and how there just isn't enough of it for cheap. Isn't this specifically because agricultural water is disproportionately (severely) discounted? I.e., it is extremely cheap for agriculture, which drives them to use more water, especially on crops that wouldn't otherwise be well-suited to that climate. Which leads to non-agricultural water to disproportionately more costly. I've read on HN that 80% of water in the west is used for agriculture, which would seem to confirm this dynamic.
  - Balgair 3y ago
    The cost structure and usage defies any simple explanation. Meaning that it's not easy to tie up in a HN comment. Honestly, each waterway can have it's own rules and it's own rights. In CO, until recently, you weren't able to collect rainwater from your own roof, as that water was already earmarked for the right's holder of the water the second it touched the ground. They've changed that and are more in line with other states, but such strange little provisions and regulations exist in other manners all over the US West. I wouldn't doubt your stats on water usage though, 80% is the right ballpark. But again, that system is the result of a bazillion little laws and regulations that would each have their day in court.
    - bumby 3y ago
      It's interesting to have learning in various parts of the country as it pertains to property rights. The West, in particular, seems strange in terms of mineral and water rights compared to other regions. I'm assuming it's an artifact of the frontier culture.