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> Among other things, it advised not to use homebrew, pyenv, anaconda, poetry, and other tools. Why are there so many so low quality programmers jumping on thi

> Among other things, it advised not to use homebrew, pyenv, anaconda, poetry, and other tools. Why are there so many so low quality programmers jumping on this problem? Why cannot they just step aside and leave this to people who actually understand what they are doing? OP has no clue what they are writing about. Anaconda is a different distribution of Python with a bunch of it's own packages, tools, processes... It definitely doesn't belong in the same group with homebrew, pyenv or Poetry. What are Python users supposed to do if they get a project exclusively distributed as an Anaconda package? The real list of things you shouldn't use to install Python packages is anything that's governed by PyPA -- it's all garbage. Unfortunately, this is impractical. The situation is in a way very similar to Linux and proprietary drivers. If you want Linux to run on your laptop, you will most likely end up needing proprietary drivers. And that's bad. And you have to compromise. So... setuptools? -- bad, shouldn't be used, but, realistically, you will end up using it anyways. pip? -- even worse, but it's very hard to avoid. In situations where you create a library, you'll probably have to also at some point face the need to provide it in Anaconda distribution, and you'll have to use conda too... which is also bad, but there's nothing you can do about it, and even if projects like mamba exist, it's still not going to help you because you must test your library with the tools the users are going to use on it, and it's a choice between not supporting a bunch of users and having to use crappy tools.

secondcoming 3y ago
Isn't setuptools deprecated for creating apt packages of python code?
- crabbone 3y ago
  The deprecation of setuptools is a joke. There's no replacement. What PyPA does is that they produce ever more bullshit wrappers for setuptools pretending they are doing something new. I think that by "apt packages" you mean DEB packages. As someone who has to package a lot of Python both for RHEL and for Debian-like... well... so far and in the observable future, setuptools isn't going anywhere. On the other hand, I could easily do without it, and sometimes do. But it's not because PyPA produced any replacement to it. It's because I simply grow frustrated with how bad of a tool setuptools is, and I just write my own. The claims PyPA makes about setuptools are because nobody wants to support that project anymore. It's awfully written at every level, from the minutia of formatting and up to the high-level design decisions. The problem is that everything else that PyPA came up with so far is a joke. The only reason I keep paying attention to it is because I'm being paid to fix problems created by using it. I'm also going to tell you a secret... well, of sorts. DEB, and RPM too are also pathetically bad... since you seem to have some experience with DEB -- to assemble this stuff you typically have to use a bunch of Make macros. Excruciatingly painful to debug. Virtually no documentation and very few people who could help you if you have a problem. And, when it comes to Python packaging, things also changed over time. Not so long ago I saw some write-up about how to package Python including virtual environment in the package. In truth, if I were a distro maintainer, and someone came to me with a package like that, I'd told them to try elsewhere. It's a sign of disrespect to the efforts of the distro maintainers to assemble a working and coherent system. But, guess who does stuff like that? -- big companies, like Amazon or Microsoft. Instead of spending effort to figure out how to play nice with the distro's packages, they distribute a huge blob that's not humanly possible to audit.
  - secondcoming 3y ago
    Yes I meant DEB packages. I’m all too familiar with how difficult it is to create a DEB package from scratch. I honestly can’t belive how difficult it is to create what is really just an archive.

secondcoming 3y ago

Isn't setuptools deprecated for creating apt packages of python code?

crabbone 3y ago
The deprecation of setuptools is a joke. There's no replacement. What PyPA does is that they produce ever more bullshit wrappers for setuptools pretending they are doing something new. I think that by "apt packages" you mean DEB packages. As someone who has to package a lot of Python both for RHEL and for Debian-like... well... so far and in the observable future, setuptools isn't going anywhere. On the other hand, I could easily do without it, and sometimes do. But it's not because PyPA produced any replacement to it. It's because I simply grow frustrated with how bad of a tool setuptools is, and I just write my own. The claims PyPA makes about setuptools are because nobody wants to support that project anymore. It's awfully written at every level, from the minutia of formatting and up to the high-level design decisions. The problem is that everything else that PyPA came up with so far is a joke. The only reason I keep paying attention to it is because I'm being paid to fix problems created by using it. I'm also going to tell you a secret... well, of sorts. DEB, and RPM too are also pathetically bad... since you seem to have some experience with DEB -- to assemble this stuff you typically have to use a bunch of Make macros. Excruciatingly painful to debug. Virtually no documentation and very few people who could help you if you have a problem. And, when it comes to Python packaging, things also changed over time. Not so long ago I saw some write-up about how to package Python including virtual environment in the package. In truth, if I were a distro maintainer, and someone came to me with a package like that, I'd told them to try elsewhere. It's a sign of disrespect to the efforts of the distro maintainers to assemble a working and coherent system. But, guess who does stuff like that? -- big companies, like Amazon or Microsoft. Instead of spending effort to figure out how to play nice with the distro's packages, they distribute a huge blob that's not humanly possible to audit.
- secondcoming 3y ago
  Yes I meant DEB packages. I’m all too familiar with how difficult it is to create a DEB package from scratch. I honestly can’t belive how difficult it is to create what is really just an archive.