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Where do you draw the line then? Caffeine? St Johns Wort? People take drugs, and they're going to do so whether they're legal or not. People have addictions an

Where do you draw the line then? Caffeine? St Johns Wort? People take drugs, and they're going to do so whether they're legal or not. People have addictions and control issues with food too, we're not talking about banning MSG or sugar. The majority (not all) of the harm comes from the illegal market they exist in. A controlled environment can only make things safer for people, and provide a basis for supporting people with issues. This works everywhere it's been tried.

zirgs 3y ago
It's much harder to start using drugs if they are illegal. I, for example, have no idea where to buy heroin in my city. But buying alcohol and cigarettes is not a problem - just go to the nearest grocery store. Illegality creates lots of friction.
- maccard 3y ago
  I don't know where to buy heroin, but I sure know that there's a sketchy dude hanging out near the toilets in a lot of bars who will sell cocaine to anyone who asks. As for it being harder to start - tell that to the 16 year olds who get their hands on alcohol. It certainly never stopped me.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  > I, for example, have no idea where to buy heroin in my city. Have you tried asking around? :P
  - zirgs 3y ago
    I guess it's possible if you're in the right social circles. But as I said - this creates friction. Now you have to look for shady people or go to shady darknet markets, telegram groups, etc. And in many jurisdictions even purchase/usage can get you a criminal record. Or you can simply go to a grocery store and buy as much alcohol as you want.
    - maccard 3y ago
      > Or you can simply go to a grocery store and buy as much alcohol as you want. Depending on where you live, of course. Saudi Arabia doesn't allow alcohol. Sweden limits the purchase of high ABV drinks to state run stores, as do some states in the US. Dry counties exist in the US too, and those places have _massive_ issues.
- LocalH 3y ago
  Illegality creates some friction, but removes others. In some areas, it would be easier for a minor to access illegal drugs than it would be to access legal ones. Nobody is going to openly sell alcohol or tobacco to kids at a retail establishment, they'd instantly lose their license. While I won't go so far as to say that every illegal drug dealer would be willing to sell to minors, it's a much smaller leap from "I'm already breaking the law by selling drugs, so what's one more law to break?" versus "I own a legitimate retail establishment, which is in jeopardy if I break this particular law". Drugs themselves should be entirely outside the scope of law enforcement. Plenty of the things that are brought up by prohibitionists would still be illegal under a host of other laws, outside of possession and use itself. Rob someone to get your next fix? Congrats, robbery is still illegal, off to jail with you. The history on this is pretty clear. Drug prohibition has caused more harm than it has protected people from. It can also springboard into discussion of historical (and current) racial disparity, as such laws almost inevitably affect the disenfranchised and downtrodden disproportionately. Drugs are not a criminal issue. They are a public health issue. Harm reduction policies work.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    Countries like Sweden or Singapore have different histories than the USA, but their drug laws are even harsher than those in the USA. Also straw purchasing a legal substance is much easier than finding a dealer of an illegal one.
    - LocalH 3y ago
      >Also straw purchasing a legal substance is much easier than finding a dealer of an illegal one. You say that as if it's a given, but it really isn't. It's region-specific, if anything. I live in Tennessee, and I would guess that it might be easier for a teen to acquire meth than alcohol. That depends on who the particular teen happens to know. Don't forget, there is also straw purchasing of illicit substances too, people who know someone who knows someone, but don't have the direct access to the one with the substance, they're also straw purchasing.
nashashmi 3y ago
Do you really think you have no ability to define the line where drugs are harmful?? It’s like I don’t know how to create good laws so therefore I should not be create laws at all. Get real.
- pjc50 3y ago
  This is a very real problem that people keep presenting actual evidence about drug harm, and it keeps getting ignored. The MMJ people argued correctly for decades that it was less harmful and addictive than prescription opiates and had valid uses for pain relief, and this made no difference to policy. (e.g. David Nutt on the British advisory council for misuse of drugs) I see you're also pretty much arguing for criminialization of alcohol, which very definitely and spectacularly failed. Although I will agree that it's probably the most harmful substance that still allowed to be regularly consumed. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) is the other substance that's been grandfathered in. Its surprisingly low lethal dose would not meet modern safety standards.
- yasman 3y ago
  Do you have any data you can reference to? Not every method to alter your mind is harmful. And hypothetically, if there was a way to improve mental health at the expense of physical health, what is the right call here? Is there one globally optimal call? Who better to make this decision than the individual? https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2010/11/drugs_debate_hots_up.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2010/11/...

zirgs 3y ago

It's much harder to start using drugs if they are illegal. I, for example, have no idea where to buy heroin in my city. But buying alcohol and cigarettes is not a problem - just go to the nearest grocery store. Illegality creates lots of friction.

maccard 3y ago
I don't know where to buy heroin, but I sure know that there's a sketchy dude hanging out near the toilets in a lot of bars who will sell cocaine to anyone who asks. As for it being harder to start - tell that to the 16 year olds who get their hands on alcohol. It certainly never stopped me.
jazzyjackson 3y ago
> I, for example, have no idea where to buy heroin in my city. Have you tried asking around? :P
- zirgs 3y ago
  I guess it's possible if you're in the right social circles. But as I said - this creates friction. Now you have to look for shady people or go to shady darknet markets, telegram groups, etc. And in many jurisdictions even purchase/usage can get you a criminal record. Or you can simply go to a grocery store and buy as much alcohol as you want.
  - maccard 3y ago
    > Or you can simply go to a grocery store and buy as much alcohol as you want. Depending on where you live, of course. Saudi Arabia doesn't allow alcohol. Sweden limits the purchase of high ABV drinks to state run stores, as do some states in the US. Dry counties exist in the US too, and those places have _massive_ issues.
LocalH 3y ago
Illegality creates some friction, but removes others. In some areas, it would be easier for a minor to access illegal drugs than it would be to access legal ones. Nobody is going to openly sell alcohol or tobacco to kids at a retail establishment, they'd instantly lose their license. While I won't go so far as to say that every illegal drug dealer would be willing to sell to minors, it's a much smaller leap from "I'm already breaking the law by selling drugs, so what's one more law to break?" versus "I own a legitimate retail establishment, which is in jeopardy if I break this particular law". Drugs themselves should be entirely outside the scope of law enforcement. Plenty of the things that are brought up by prohibitionists would still be illegal under a host of other laws, outside of possession and use itself. Rob someone to get your next fix? Congrats, robbery is still illegal, off to jail with you. The history on this is pretty clear. Drug prohibition has caused more harm than it has protected people from. It can also springboard into discussion of historical (and current) racial disparity, as such laws almost inevitably affect the disenfranchised and downtrodden disproportionately. Drugs are not a criminal issue. They are a public health issue. Harm reduction policies work.
- zirgs 3y ago
  Countries like Sweden or Singapore have different histories than the USA, but their drug laws are even harsher than those in the USA. Also straw purchasing a legal substance is much easier than finding a dealer of an illegal one.
  - LocalH 3y ago
    >Also straw purchasing a legal substance is much easier than finding a dealer of an illegal one. You say that as if it's a given, but it really isn't. It's region-specific, if anything. I live in Tennessee, and I would guess that it might be easier for a teen to acquire meth than alcohol. That depends on who the particular teen happens to know. Don't forget, there is also straw purchasing of illicit substances too, people who know someone who knows someone, but don't have the direct access to the one with the substance, they're also straw purchasing.

nashashmi 3y ago

Do you really think you have no ability to define the line where drugs are harmful?? It’s like I don’t know how to create good laws so therefore I should not be create laws at all. Get real.

pjc50 3y ago
This is a very real problem that people keep presenting actual evidence about drug harm, and it keeps getting ignored. The MMJ people argued correctly for decades that it was less harmful and addictive than prescription opiates and had valid uses for pain relief, and this made no difference to policy. (e.g. David Nutt on the British advisory council for misuse of drugs) I see you're also pretty much arguing for criminialization of alcohol, which very definitely and spectacularly failed. Although I will agree that it's probably the most harmful substance that still allowed to be regularly consumed. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) is the other substance that's been grandfathered in. Its surprisingly low lethal dose would not meet modern safety standards.
yasman 3y ago
Do you have any data you can reference to? Not every method to alter your mind is harmful. And hypothetically, if there was a way to improve mental health at the expense of physical health, what is the right call here? Is there one globally optimal call? Who better to make this decision than the individual? https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2010/11/drugs_debate_hots_up.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2010/11/...