6 ms·

I recognize that web developers want full control over the user experience, usually to the point of reimplementing all of the native UI widgets provided by the

I recognize that web developers want full control over the user experience, usually to the point of reimplementing all of the native UI widgets provided by the user’s OS. As a user, I prefer for my OS to do things my OS does, including styling my widgets. My scrollbars, my scrolling behavior, window chrome, all of it… whether it’s good or bad or right or wrong, that’s between me and my OS. As a user, I hate when web apps mess with scrolling. It breaks affordances I use, like tapping at the top of the screen to jump to the top of the page, or home/end keys on desktop. It is inevitably a worse experience than native scrolling, no matter how hard you try. Facebook mobile web for example is basically unusable right now because it’s trying to overthink scrolling. If Facebook can’t get it right, I’m not sure what makes anyone else think they can. And why would anyone want to? Honestly! Microsoft and Apple have already done all that work. As for scroll bars and other widgets, again, right or wrong, that’s not for some web site to mess with. Sorry if the developer doesn’t like the way it looks… they only have to deal with it while working on it. As a user, I am stuck with the developer’s choices, even if they override my own choices, which I’ve made in my OS, which is where those choices belong. If you’re going to clobber native experience, I would argue, don’t do it unless there is absolutely no other option. Corollary: there is always another option.

eviks 3y ago
Facebook isn't known for great design, so the fact they can't get it right tells us very little Similarly with the MS/Apple - if they had already done all the work, they would allow you to force your scrollbar choice > Corollary: there is always another option What's your other option to only show wide scrollbar in large documents since these are the only ones I actually need scrollbar in?
grishka 3y ago
YouTube's custom scrollbars that take actual space on screen at all times annoyed me so much that I made a userscript that got rid of them. I made the choice to use overlay scrollbars, and I will enforce it if needed.
- Buildstarted 3y ago
  Sorry but what's overlay scrollbars? (I found a few results but I'm not sure if they're the same thing you're talking about)
  - pmontra 3y ago
    Not parent but probably this from GNOME https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues/1701 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues... I disable them in settings. I want to see them all the time.
    - Buildstarted 3y ago
      Ah, ok. Completely different from what I was thinking with regards to scrollbars/css. Thanks!
  - grishka 3y ago
    On macOS, when you use Apple input devices, the scrollbars work like on iOS and Android. They appear on top of the scrollable content when you start scrolling and disappear shortly after you stop. You can make them visible all the time, but then they will take up space like they do in e.g. Windows. https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/mac-help/mchlp1225/mac https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/mac-help/mchlp1225/mac
drpixie 3y ago
Absolutely! I know there are designers out there, obsessing over every last detail. But I want an easy to navigate, consistent experience. I don't want to wave the mouse around hoping to find the easter-egg that is a link. Or the almost (or actually) invisible scroll bar. Or the "button" that looks just like text. There is an existing, consistent, simple look - divert from that and you're at risk of my going elsewhere because you've ignored the #1 reason to be a web page ... I don't use it because it looks great, I go there to do something, and do it easily.
sfvisser 3y ago
I get the argument that fully custom scroll bars aren’t great for accessibility in many cases. However, the default behavior out of the browser or OS is pretty terrible in many cases as well. Scroll bars popping in and out of existence awkwardly reflowing elements around it. Tiny unusable 30px wide horizontal scroll bars inside an input element because an element overflows 0.7px due to font size rounding issues or what not. Default scroll bars are great for documents, but pretty terrible mostly for slightly more complicated UIs where a lot of info is displayed in small area.
- Sakos 3y ago
  I recently discovered to my dismay that Firefox uses Windows 11's setting for whether to hide the scroll bar. And it's hidden by default. Though FF is happy to hide them by default on its own anyway. I can't imagine how this is a good thing for end users for whom computers are already unpredictable and difficult to understand. Modern UX is a nightmare.
  - donkeybeer 3y ago
    gtk has forced overlay scrollbars now. Its possible to enable normal scrollbars again with a flag right now, but for how long? edit: they are removing the flag from gtk 4: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6 gtk is effectively a gnome project now, and we all know gnome's attitude toward design and users.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      There's a lot to dislike in GTK 4. I'm hoping that it gets used by fewer applications.
tsimionescu 3y ago
First of all, the OS does not style widgets, the browser does. And scrollbars are completely different in different browsers - they have different sizes, different behavior, different look-and-feels. So either you create versions of your app which match each browser individually, or you re-style the scrollbars to look the same as the rest of the app. Thirdly, there is an obvious counter to your arguments that shows that one-size-fits-all design is not actually what users always want: games. You wouldn't expect a game to use the system look-and-feel, it rightfully uses a look-and-feel that matches the game itself. And we can extend this observation further out: if your app is self-contained enough, and you have a distinctive enough style that your users like, then you should re-style everything away from the OS style to your specific unique look. Should every app do this? Absolutely not. But is there no case outside gaming where an app should? Of course not.
- pprotas 3y ago
  MacOS and iOS scrollbars are the same in every app and browser. They are styled by the OS, even in iOS games.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    Perhaps, but MacOS and iOS are not the only OSs out there. Also, full screen iOS games have full control of the screen and I/O, and can choose to draw anything they want and implement any interaction they want, they don't have to rely on the system to draw widgets for them.
- pyrale 3y ago
  I believe the point is that if you're unhappy with the default scrollbar, you should get rid of it altogether rather than torture it into doing something it's not meant to do. Having done e.g. an endless scroll application, the scrollbar was unfit for our use, no matter what we did. The right solution was to remove scrollbar and implement our own scrolling mechanism.
  - 411111111111111 3y ago
nailer 3y ago
many native apps on mobile platforms don’t use scroll bars at all. Content simply extends off screen and more content can be pulled in.
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
>Sorry if the developer doesn’t like the way it looks… in my experience it is generally designers or business people who don't like it, the developer generally argues your line.
al_be_back 3y ago
>> Microsoft and Apple have already done all that work. eg. Dark Mode - wasn't created by Browser or OS providers, but developers (as I understand), then OS/Browsers played catch-up. Developers can and sometimes do influence Design "upstream".
Sophira 3y ago
The thing that I really don't get is that these designers must be users too. Would they be happy to use what they create? One assumes the answer would be yes, but I'm not sure.
paulddraper 3y ago
> As a user, I hate when web apps mess with scrolling. To be clear, this articles talks about styling only. Tbh, if you like native features of scrollbars, widgets, etc., the most practical way you'll get to keep them in 2023 will be if they can be custom styled.

eviks 3y ago

Facebook isn't known for great design, so the fact they can't get it right tells us very little Similarly with the MS/Apple - if they had already done all the work, they would allow you to force your scrollbar choice > Corollary: there is always another option What's your other option to only show wide scrollbar in large documents since these are the only ones I actually need scrollbar in?

grishka 3y ago

YouTube's custom scrollbars that take actual space on screen at all times annoyed me so much that I made a userscript that got rid of them. I made the choice to use overlay scrollbars, and I will enforce it if needed.

Buildstarted 3y ago
Sorry but what's overlay scrollbars? (I found a few results but I'm not sure if they're the same thing you're talking about)
- pmontra 3y ago
  Not parent but probably this from GNOME https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues/1701 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues... I disable them in settings. I want to see them all the time.
  - Buildstarted 3y ago
    Ah, ok. Completely different from what I was thinking with regards to scrollbars/css. Thanks!
- grishka 3y ago
  On macOS, when you use Apple input devices, the scrollbars work like on iOS and Android. They appear on top of the scrollable content when you start scrolling and disappear shortly after you stop. You can make them visible all the time, but then they will take up space like they do in e.g. Windows. https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/mac-help/mchlp1225/mac https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/mac-help/mchlp1225/mac

drpixie 3y ago

Absolutely! I know there are designers out there, obsessing over every last detail. But I want an easy to navigate, consistent experience. I don't want to wave the mouse around hoping to find the easter-egg that is a link. Or the almost (or actually) invisible scroll bar. Or the "button" that looks just like text. There is an existing, consistent, simple look - divert from that and you're at risk of my going elsewhere because you've ignored the #1 reason to be a web page ... I don't use it because it looks great, I go there to do something, and do it easily.

sfvisser 3y ago

I get the argument that fully custom scroll bars aren’t great for accessibility in many cases. However, the default behavior out of the browser or OS is pretty terrible in many cases as well. Scroll bars popping in and out of existence awkwardly reflowing elements around it. Tiny unusable 30px wide horizontal scroll bars inside an input element because an element overflows 0.7px due to font size rounding issues or what not. Default scroll bars are great for documents, but pretty terrible mostly for slightly more complicated UIs where a lot of info is displayed in small area.

Sakos 3y ago
I recently discovered to my dismay that Firefox uses Windows 11's setting for whether to hide the scroll bar. And it's hidden by default. Though FF is happy to hide them by default on its own anyway. I can't imagine how this is a good thing for end users for whom computers are already unpredictable and difficult to understand. Modern UX is a nightmare.
- donkeybeer 3y ago
  gtk has forced overlay scrollbars now. Its possible to enable normal scrollbars again with a flag right now, but for how long? edit: they are removing the flag from gtk 4: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6 gtk is effectively a gnome project now, and we all know gnome's attitude toward design and users.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    There's a lot to dislike in GTK 4. I'm hoping that it gets used by fewer applications.

tsimionescu 3y ago

First of all, the OS does not style widgets, the browser does. And scrollbars are completely different in different browsers - they have different sizes, different behavior, different look-and-feels. So either you create versions of your app which match each browser individually, or you re-style the scrollbars to look the same as the rest of the app. Thirdly, there is an obvious counter to your arguments that shows that one-size-fits-all design is not actually what users always want: games. You wouldn't expect a game to use the system look-and-feel, it rightfully uses a look-and-feel that matches the game itself. And we can extend this observation further out: if your app is self-contained enough, and you have a distinctive enough style that your users like, then you should re-style everything away from the OS style to your specific unique look. Should every app do this? Absolutely not. But is there no case outside gaming where an app should? Of course not.

pprotas 3y ago
MacOS and iOS scrollbars are the same in every app and browser. They are styled by the OS, even in iOS games.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Perhaps, but MacOS and iOS are not the only OSs out there. Also, full screen iOS games have full control of the screen and I/O, and can choose to draw anything they want and implement any interaction they want, they don't have to rely on the system to draw widgets for them.
pyrale 3y ago
I believe the point is that if you're unhappy with the default scrollbar, you should get rid of it altogether rather than torture it into doing something it's not meant to do. Having done e.g. an endless scroll application, the scrollbar was unfit for our use, no matter what we did. The right solution was to remove scrollbar and implement our own scrolling mechanism.
- 411111111111111 3y ago

nailer 3y ago

many native apps on mobile platforms don’t use scroll bars at all. Content simply extends off screen and more content can be pulled in.

bryanrasmussen 3y ago

>Sorry if the developer doesn’t like the way it looks… in my experience it is generally designers or business people who don't like it, the developer generally argues your line.

al_be_back 3y ago

>> Microsoft and Apple have already done all that work. eg. Dark Mode - wasn't created by Browser or OS providers, but developers (as I understand), then OS/Browsers played catch-up. Developers can and sometimes do influence Design "upstream".

Sophira 3y ago

The thing that I really don't get is that these designers must be users too. Would they be happy to use what they create? One assumes the answer would be yes, but I'm not sure.

paulddraper 3y ago

> As a user, I hate when web apps mess with scrolling. To be clear, this articles talks about styling only. Tbh, if you like native features of scrollbars, widgets, etc., the most practical way you'll get to keep them in 2023 will be if they can be custom styled.