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> being able to style and control the width of the scrollbar is useful No it's not. I have operating system wide settings for how scroll bars should work and t

> being able to style and control the width of the scrollbar is useful No it's not. I have operating system wide settings for how scroll bars should work and the rules are complex with visibility and size of the scroll bar changing from one second to the next. I expect my scroll bar settings to apply to all websites and they are significantly better than what codepen does. Codepen also doesn't allow me to scroll past the beginning/end of the file, which feels jarring and just wrong with a touch scroll device. And I'd bet it also falls apart with assistive technology for people who can't physically operate a mouse or trackpad, which in most countries is illegal. Why open yourself up to those issues?

fbrchps 3y ago
> highly opinionated solutions as something definite even though it has a narrow focus on what the author cares about Most users either don't have such strong opinions about their scroll bars, or would prefer it looks coherent with the application, or OS-native (your preference). But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. Also in terms of accessibility, so long as they're doing CSS-only changes, and the bar is sized compliant and has proper focus states, assistive technology won't care.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  They won't care as long as it's consistent. The only way for it to be consistent is for people not to touch it.
- ccooffee 3y ago
  > Also in terms of accessibility, so long as they're doing CSS-only changes, and the bar is sized compliant and has proper focus states, assistive technology won't care. Eh, it depends on your audience. My father has very poor eyesight. He doesn't use any assistive tools (e.g. screen readers or magnifiers), but he does need his computer-reading glasses. Accessibility isn't just ADA compliance and/or screen reader support.
  - toastal 3y ago
    Same argument for why we should use tabs over space when accessibility seems squarely focused on the blind and screen readers when visual impairment is a broad spectrum. My eyesight isn’t ‘bad’, but it isn’t what it used to be and with so many code bases using 2-space indentation, I wonder why this isn’t configurable as I have a lot of difficulty discerning the contrast when it’s so shallow.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Any modern IDE will allow you to display 2-space indentations however you wish.
      - tom_ 3y ago
        Where is this option in Visual Studio 2022, and Xcode?
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Considering the trend now is to straight up remove scroll bars (why the fuck...), I expect conversations like this will become moot in the not so distant future.
- friendzis 3y ago
  > But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. So you argument in favor of breaking the UIs of the non-technical users - who don't know that it is not their computer working wrong, but rather the site operator deliberately making things inaccessible - is users don't know that it is you breaking things? Sounds rather horrible.
- onion2k 3y ago
  But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. I think you're saying that this means it doesn't matter, but it actually increases the importance of respecting the users choices. Anyone who has changed their scrollbar has done so because it's important enough to them to bother. They've put effort in. That means there is far more likely to be a good reason not to override their preferred styling.
- Sakos 3y ago
  Just because most users don't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't impact them and that they should be ignored. The very fact that they can't fight for the solution that best benefits them means the onus is on us as designers and programmers to do that for them, instead of handwaving their needs away.
MereInterest 3y ago
Or to phrase it a different way: Being able to style and control the width of the scrollbar is so incredibly useful that it must be in the hands of users, and not designers.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Would you extend that to buttons, text fields and all other components in general? I'd say default should be whatever the web designer wanted, if you're not agree you can always use one of the overrider plugins.
  - donkeybeer 3y ago
    Yes 100%, apps should follow the theme for components set by the user.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Well, that's a super minority opinion. Also, websites are not apps.
      - donkeybeer 3y ago
        The same applies to most websites too
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      I would go even further: websites should not be the ultimate decider on any style-related decision. Including colors, font faces, text size, margins, padding, content width, and any other UI elements. Website should be able to suggest these things, but browsers should default to the user’s preference or the system’s configuration. The user should have the final say on how the User Agent displays HTML content. Browsers have ceded far too much control over these things to websites, to the point where we are even debating whether they should style such fundamental OS controls as scroll bars!
      - 3y ago
afavour 3y ago
> Codepen also doesn't allow me to scroll past the beginning/end of the file, which feels jarring and just wrong with a touch scroll device. Stuff like this often happens because of a lack of native styling options. Can’t change the appearance of the scroll bar (for, yes, often dumb reasons)? OK then we’ll use a giant JS library that poorly replicates every aspect of scrolling. At least with native scroll styling, ugly as it may be, you get native behaviours.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
  This doesn’t make any sense. The native behavior is what OP wants. No one needs to recreate the native behavior, it is already available
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    The person you're reacting to is making a distinction between a native (in the context of browser) scrollbar with the ability to change its presentational style (but not behavior) and a completely custom JS driven scrollbar with likely different behavior from the native experience.
eviks 3y ago
Interesting setup, do you have a link to it?

fbrchps 3y ago

> highly opinionated solutions as something definite even though it has a narrow focus on what the author cares about Most users either don't have such strong opinions about their scroll bars, or would prefer it looks coherent with the application, or OS-native (your preference). But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. Also in terms of accessibility, so long as they're doing CSS-only changes, and the bar is sized compliant and has proper focus states, assistive technology won't care.

pessimizer 3y ago
They won't care as long as it's consistent. The only way for it to be consistent is for people not to touch it.
ccooffee 3y ago
> Also in terms of accessibility, so long as they're doing CSS-only changes, and the bar is sized compliant and has proper focus states, assistive technology won't care. Eh, it depends on your audience. My father has very poor eyesight. He doesn't use any assistive tools (e.g. screen readers or magnifiers), but he does need his computer-reading glasses. Accessibility isn't just ADA compliance and/or screen reader support.
- toastal 3y ago
  Same argument for why we should use tabs over space when accessibility seems squarely focused on the blind and screen readers when visual impairment is a broad spectrum. My eyesight isn’t ‘bad’, but it isn’t what it used to be and with so many code bases using 2-space indentation, I wonder why this isn’t configurable as I have a lot of difficulty discerning the contrast when it’s so shallow.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Any modern IDE will allow you to display 2-space indentations however you wish.
    - tom_ 3y ago
      Where is this option in Visual Studio 2022, and Xcode?
Dalewyn 3y ago
Considering the trend now is to straight up remove scroll bars (why the fuck...), I expect conversations like this will become moot in the not so distant future.
friendzis 3y ago
> But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. So you argument in favor of breaking the UIs of the non-technical users - who don't know that it is not their computer working wrong, but rather the site operator deliberately making things inaccessible - is users don't know that it is you breaking things? Sounds rather horrible.
onion2k 3y ago
But I can almost guarantee the larger group of non-technical users will have never thought about the styling of their scrollbars for more than a few seconds. I think you're saying that this means it doesn't matter, but it actually increases the importance of respecting the users choices. Anyone who has changed their scrollbar has done so because it's important enough to them to bother. They've put effort in. That means there is far more likely to be a good reason not to override their preferred styling.
Sakos 3y ago
Just because most users don't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't impact them and that they should be ignored. The very fact that they can't fight for the solution that best benefits them means the onus is on us as designers and programmers to do that for them, instead of handwaving their needs away.

MereInterest 3y ago

Or to phrase it a different way: Being able to style and control the width of the scrollbar is so incredibly useful that it must be in the hands of users, and not designers.

jojobas 3y ago
Would you extend that to buttons, text fields and all other components in general? I'd say default should be whatever the web designer wanted, if you're not agree you can always use one of the overrider plugins.
- donkeybeer 3y ago
  Yes 100%, apps should follow the theme for components set by the user.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Well, that's a super minority opinion. Also, websites are not apps.
    - donkeybeer 3y ago
      The same applies to most websites too
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I would go even further: websites should not be the ultimate decider on any style-related decision. Including colors, font faces, text size, margins, padding, content width, and any other UI elements. Website should be able to suggest these things, but browsers should default to the user’s preference or the system’s configuration. The user should have the final say on how the User Agent displays HTML content. Browsers have ceded far too much control over these things to websites, to the point where we are even debating whether they should style such fundamental OS controls as scroll bars!
    - 3y ago

afavour 3y ago

> Codepen also doesn't allow me to scroll past the beginning/end of the file, which feels jarring and just wrong with a touch scroll device. Stuff like this often happens because of a lack of native styling options. Can’t change the appearance of the scroll bar (for, yes, often dumb reasons)? OK then we’ll use a giant JS library that poorly replicates every aspect of scrolling. At least with native scroll styling, ugly as it may be, you get native behaviours.

eyelidlessness 3y ago
This doesn’t make any sense. The native behavior is what OP wants. No one needs to recreate the native behavior, it is already available
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  The person you're reacting to is making a distinction between a native (in the context of browser) scrollbar with the ability to change its presentational style (but not behavior) and a completely custom JS driven scrollbar with likely different behavior from the native experience.

eviks 3y ago

Interesting setup, do you have a link to it?