8 ms·

Mapping pedestrian traffic light timing in Sydney, Australia

79 points by jakecopp 3y ago

jakecopp 3y ago
Transport for NSW, the government agency which controls traffic signal timing in Sydney and NSW, has an excellent stated goal of increasing walking and cycling trips – and reducing pedestrian wait times at intersections. However, there is no public data on traffic light timing in Sydney or NSW. I built this little React site to crowdsource measurements and inform where positive changes could be made - Sydney focused, but works anywhere in the world if you'd like to make use of it/fork it!
- rozenmd 3y ago
  I wonder if the $75 fine for jaywalking and NSW Police's love for issuing these fines are related to how long the timings are.
  - robbiep 3y ago
    Just cross back from the crossing. It’s legal (?not illegal) to jaywalk in NSW if you are more than 20m from the nearest designated crossing, if you are not interfering with traffic (section 234). I’ve never met anyone who has received a fine for crossing at the wrong time?
    - rozenmd 3y ago
      Most folks in the city just walk through the red light when there's no traffic - I've seen them fine folks in waves around Central and Town Hall.
      - riekus 3y ago
        As an European which spend 4 years in Sydney recently I was always surprised at the opposite. Every after going out at midnight, Hurds of people would be waiting for a red light with no car/traffic in sight for a mile. I always jaywalk, feel particularly upset that a computer is telling me to wait for a save time, without context, while I can obviously tell it's save. Recently discussed this behaviour in Sydney, remember it was particularly bad around Surry hills
      - hilbert42 3y ago
        "just walk through the red light when there's no traffic" You can't blame them, it really is damn infuriating when nothing is coming. Same applies as a driver, if I could have back all the time I've waited for lights to change I reckon I'd be years younger. Sydney's traffic light system is brain-dead. Incidentally, years ago I was at a trade launch by a well known company and I found myself sitting next to a person who was one of the programmers for the traffic light system and I made the mistake of mentioning how bad the system was. Wow, he nearly took my head off, it was such as sensitive subject. He then proceeded to lecture me about how difficult the problem was and how good the local effort was compared with many other comparable cities.
  - shric 3y ago
    I've lived in the Sydney CBD (Haymarket) for 10 years. I don't own a car because I don't need one. I jaywalk at every opportunity many times every day. I've never been fined for jaywalking. One time I was crossing the street with my wife near Town Hall against a red pedestrian light and I was smiling because of the conversation. We were walking toward two uniformed NSW Police officers whom I failed to notice as I was looking out for traffic when crossing the street. One of them, in her twenties, snapped at me like I was a naughty child (I'm around 50) with "you have the nerve to smile while illegally crossing? I could fine you you know". I didn't want a fine so stopped smiling and apologised and continued on my way. That said occasionally there is a coordinated session where they hang out at specific intersections waiting to fine people but they don't try to hide themselves (usually there's a parked police motorcycle on one corner of the intersection, etc.)
    - rozenmd 3y ago
      When you're a uni student, they don't hesitate, they just fine you.
- joppy 3y ago
  Thanks for making this! I’ve found that as a pedestrian in Sydney, up to half my walking time is spent waiting for traffic lights, and have always wondered what could be done about it.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    "...up to half my walking time is spent waiting for traffic lights," Amen. ...And often when no traffic is coming.
streamfrog 3y ago
When I moved from Europe to Sydney, it was striking how much traffic lights deprioritised walking. Visitors have independently commented on similar things. Its not just timing, but also inefficient phases. I requested the dataset for phases, but after months was given a totally different dataset. I gave up.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  Melbourne is the same. Buttons that change the timing are rare or maybe even non-existent. I can’t think of any intersections where pressing the button does anything other than activate the pedestrian lights.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    I have never seen an intersection where beg buttons favor pedestrians and not drivers, because beg buttons give engineers the latitude to establish red crosswalks unless requested. So help you if you arrive just in time to miss your activation cycle and have to wait a full light cycle for the crosswalk.
    - danhor 3y ago
      I've seen quite a few intersections (Germany) that only feature one car road, but a crossing pedestrian/bike street that after pressing the beg button immediately begin to switch the light, resulting in a consistent, short wait (apart from signal priority stuff for busses). But anything more complicated, nothing comes to mind.
      - Someone 3y ago
        https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/traffic-lights-in-s-hertogenbosch-an-interview/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/traffic-lights... has plenty examples of things more complicated, for example: “In the past, buses always got priority. Now every bus is tagged and the computer knows all the time-tables of every line. The system knows exactly when which bus needs to arrive at a certain intersection. The installation checks whether a bus is too early, on time, or running late and sets the lights accordingly.” “On the cycleways we always have double loops, separated by 75 centimetres. That way we can measure speed and direction by combining the data the computer receives from the two loops. It also means we don’t need to reserve green time for a cyclist riding against traffic, away from the intersection.” And the pushbutton? “For cyclists that’s not really necessary. They’re only there for reassurance. You often see in the reports that people don’t even bother to push the button.”
secretsatan 3y ago
I've been meaning to time the traffic lights where I am, most are really good for pedestrians, but there are some here and there that take an age to change. I even changed my walk to work as the shortest path has a couple of particularly slow crossings, making a slightly longer route quicker as it only has zebra crossings.
ninesnines 3y ago
This is actually one of the most annoying things I’ve noticed in Brisbane - the lights for walking take absolutely forever. To the point that everyone will j walk because it can take 5 minutes for a light to change; it makes getting around the city so frustrating as a person coming from Northern Europe
- aldonius 3y ago
  If I were to figure out a localised instance would you collect data? I don't go into the CBD that often is all. edit: or just do data collection for Brissie directly: https://betterintersections.jakecoppinger.com/?lat=-27.5&lon=153 https://betterintersections.jakecoppinger.com/?lat=-27.5&lon...
  - jakecopp 3y ago
    You don't have to set up another instance - this site works for anywhere in Australia (or the world - but maybe their traffic lights are too different. Currently I just default the view to Sydney but this could be modified to view where a user is (rough IP geolocation), and I've got a work in progress PR for storing the lat/lon/zoom in the URL so you can bookmark/share locations.
    - aldonius 3y ago
      I guess the question I have is what you intend the main interface experience to be for people - the form or the map? I imagine there's a few trick things that could be done on the map page like nailing the coordinates, doing the timer --- and then bouncing over to Google Forms via the power of pre-filled links.
      - jakecopp 3y ago
        Definitely would prefer the map (and associated pages/possibly form in future) to the be main interface. The Google Form makes it very easy to bootstrap collecting emails (reliably) to prevent any spam that may be submitted, but it's long and confusing to new users (already got that feedback). Ideally in future you could click on an intersection on the map, use a timer in the page (could optimise the UX), associate an email address with a one time code (on first load/if no cookie) then submit (with the OSM node ID already filled in so I don't have to manually update that). So that would be the long term roadmap - if it gets enough traction and I have time!
rconti 3y ago
Don't forget the infuriating situation where infra designers/whomever decide "we can't put a sidewalk here", or governments allow construction to close a sidewalk for years on end. Why it's acceptable to put up signs saying "don't cross here" and instead require that people cross the road 3 times to go a few dozens of feet is beyond me.
- fatnoah 3y ago
  > Don't forget the infuriating situation where infra designers/whomever decide "we can't put a sidewalk here", or governments allow construction to close a sidewalk for years on end. My favorite instance of this happened when the town decided to improve the dodgy sidewalk that followed a busy road. The sidewalk was in rough shape, and while it was walkable, it would have been impossible for anyone with a mobility impairment. Improving the sidewalk meant that it was closed for almost 8 months. During that time, I had to walk at the edge of the vehicle travel lane. As winter approached, they finally finished construction and I enjoyed the beautiful condition of the new sidewalk...for about two months. After the first snow storm, it became impassible and, for reasons I never found out, the town never plowed it again. So, I had the option to travel back in traffic, or trudge through the snow. The situation ended up being a factor in me giving up and buying a car.
blindstitch 3y ago
In the USA, the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices has an (I think) reasonable requirements for crossing durations but almost no further recommendations about maximum wait times. This results in completely idiotic timing programs of the signals everywhere that encourage people to cross when cars have a green light. If you want to change it to be more pedestrian friendly, it can cost $20k+ because the signals are programmed in a 40 year old language that only a very small group of highly paid traffic engineers know how to write.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > If you want to change it to be more pedestrian friendly, it can cost $20k+ Per set of lights?!
  - blindstitch 3y ago
    I could be wrong. I can't locate the source I found originally. Online chatter for a city planning forum said around 20k. This very old information says it's a lot less, but I don't think these numbers would be accurate for a small town with only enough money to fix their signals piecemeal by contractors, or for one that involves smarter programming that works around MUTCD. https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/its/benecost.nsf/ID/215f723db93d293c8525725f00786fd8 https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/its/benecost.nsf/ID/215f723db...
- unflxw 3y ago
  > the signals are programmed in a 40 year old language that only a very small group of highly paid traffic engineers know how to write. This is interesting. What language is this, or more generally, where can I read more about this?
  - mschild 3y ago
    edit: Whops. Just realized theyre talking about the US. Disregard my comment. I'm not entirely sure what OP is talking about, but I think they use a system called SCATS.[0] Looks like the system is actually pretty widely used in some other countries as well. [0] https://www.scats.nsw.gov.au/solutions/products https://www.scats.nsw.gov.au/solutions/products
kfarr 3y ago
This is awesome, and I'd add that in doing safe streets advocacy in SF I have learned that to make changes like these it's helpful to record the entire signal timing for all phases to make more concrete recommendations for changing timing. In other words you'll have to take time from other signal phases to increase ped timing and without that data it's hard to advocate for change. Here is one example of a full phase visualization: https://glitch.com/edit/#!/aframe-ped-signals?path=README.md%3A1%3A0 https://glitch.com/edit/#!/aframe-ped-signals?path=README.md...
leothelion_ 3y ago
I’d very much like to see for Melbourne!
- jakecopp 3y ago
  You can add data for intersections in Melbourne! The default view is Sydney but it works everywhere. PRs welcome for setting initial landing coordinates to rough geolocation!
pedalpete 3y ago
I'm surprised traffic light timing is a focus for increasing cycling trips. Bikes can use the same timing as car traffic (we go when the cars go). I know the "bike paths" of sydney have their own little green cycling man, but I mostly ignore those. The bike lanes are infuriating. with multiple areas requiring the crossing of 3 lanes of traffic where the bike lane is on the right side going into an intersection, and on the left on the other side of the intersection. I (and many other cyclists I've seen) are regularly just cycling in car lanes because the bike lane is incompressible in some areas. Often, it is only for a block or 2 until you can get back into the bike lane safely, and stay in the lane for at least a few blocks. I often wonder if the person who is in charge of designing bike lanes in Sydney even has a bike.
whophd 3y ago
Are we documenting “silent walks”, where timing is flexibly maximised into whatever the car traffic is doing? They’re a tiny percentage overall, but on quiet t-junctions they can last hours in the dead of night. “Silent” because the accessibility sounds deactivate until the phase changes.

79 points by jakecopp 3y ago

Transport for NSW, the government agency which controls traffic signal timing in Sydney and NSW, has an excellent stated goal of increasing walking and cycling trips – and reducing pedestrian wait times at intersections. However, there is no public data on traffic light timing in Sydney or NSW. I built this little React site to crowdsource measurements and inform where positive changes could be made - Sydney focused, but works anywhere in the world if you'd like to make use of it/fork it!

rozenmd 3y ago
I wonder if the $75 fine for jaywalking and NSW Police's love for issuing these fines are related to how long the timings are.
- robbiep 3y ago
  Just cross back from the crossing. It’s legal (?not illegal) to jaywalk in NSW if you are more than 20m from the nearest designated crossing, if you are not interfering with traffic (section 234). I’ve never met anyone who has received a fine for crossing at the wrong time?
  - rozenmd 3y ago
    Most folks in the city just walk through the red light when there's no traffic - I've seen them fine folks in waves around Central and Town Hall.
    - riekus 3y ago
      As an European which spend 4 years in Sydney recently I was always surprised at the opposite. Every after going out at midnight, Hurds of people would be waiting for a red light with no car/traffic in sight for a mile. I always jaywalk, feel particularly upset that a computer is telling me to wait for a save time, without context, while I can obviously tell it's save. Recently discussed this behaviour in Sydney, remember it was particularly bad around Surry hills
    - hilbert42 3y ago
      "just walk through the red light when there's no traffic" You can't blame them, it really is damn infuriating when nothing is coming. Same applies as a driver, if I could have back all the time I've waited for lights to change I reckon I'd be years younger. Sydney's traffic light system is brain-dead. Incidentally, years ago I was at a trade launch by a well known company and I found myself sitting next to a person who was one of the programmers for the traffic light system and I made the mistake of mentioning how bad the system was. Wow, he nearly took my head off, it was such as sensitive subject. He then proceeded to lecture me about how difficult the problem was and how good the local effort was compared with many other comparable cities.
- shric 3y ago
  I've lived in the Sydney CBD (Haymarket) for 10 years. I don't own a car because I don't need one. I jaywalk at every opportunity many times every day. I've never been fined for jaywalking. One time I was crossing the street with my wife near Town Hall against a red pedestrian light and I was smiling because of the conversation. We were walking toward two uniformed NSW Police officers whom I failed to notice as I was looking out for traffic when crossing the street. One of them, in her twenties, snapped at me like I was a naughty child (I'm around 50) with "you have the nerve to smile while illegally crossing? I could fine you you know". I didn't want a fine so stopped smiling and apologised and continued on my way. That said occasionally there is a coordinated session where they hang out at specific intersections waiting to fine people but they don't try to hide themselves (usually there's a parked police motorcycle on one corner of the intersection, etc.)
  - rozenmd 3y ago
    When you're a uni student, they don't hesitate, they just fine you.
joppy 3y ago
Thanks for making this! I’ve found that as a pedestrian in Sydney, up to half my walking time is spent waiting for traffic lights, and have always wondered what could be done about it.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  "...up to half my walking time is spent waiting for traffic lights," Amen. ...And often when no traffic is coming.

streamfrog 3y ago

When I moved from Europe to Sydney, it was striking how much traffic lights deprioritised walking. Visitors have independently commented on similar things. Its not just timing, but also inefficient phases. I requested the dataset for phases, but after months was given a totally different dataset. I gave up.

shortcake27 3y ago
Melbourne is the same. Buttons that change the timing are rare or maybe even non-existent. I can’t think of any intersections where pressing the button does anything other than activate the pedestrian lights.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  I have never seen an intersection where beg buttons favor pedestrians and not drivers, because beg buttons give engineers the latitude to establish red crosswalks unless requested. So help you if you arrive just in time to miss your activation cycle and have to wait a full light cycle for the crosswalk.
  - danhor 3y ago
    I've seen quite a few intersections (Germany) that only feature one car road, but a crossing pedestrian/bike street that after pressing the beg button immediately begin to switch the light, resulting in a consistent, short wait (apart from signal priority stuff for busses). But anything more complicated, nothing comes to mind.
    - Someone 3y ago
      https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/traffic-lights-in-s-hertogenbosch-an-interview/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/traffic-lights... has plenty examples of things more complicated, for example: “In the past, buses always got priority. Now every bus is tagged and the computer knows all the time-tables of every line. The system knows exactly when which bus needs to arrive at a certain intersection. The installation checks whether a bus is too early, on time, or running late and sets the lights accordingly.” “On the cycleways we always have double loops, separated by 75 centimetres. That way we can measure speed and direction by combining the data the computer receives from the two loops. It also means we don’t need to reserve green time for a cyclist riding against traffic, away from the intersection.” And the pushbutton? “For cyclists that’s not really necessary. They’re only there for reassurance. You often see in the reports that people don’t even bother to push the button.”

secretsatan 3y ago

I've been meaning to time the traffic lights where I am, most are really good for pedestrians, but there are some here and there that take an age to change. I even changed my walk to work as the shortest path has a couple of particularly slow crossings, making a slightly longer route quicker as it only has zebra crossings.

ninesnines 3y ago

This is actually one of the most annoying things I’ve noticed in Brisbane - the lights for walking take absolutely forever. To the point that everyone will j walk because it can take 5 minutes for a light to change; it makes getting around the city so frustrating as a person coming from Northern Europe

aldonius 3y ago
If I were to figure out a localised instance would you collect data? I don't go into the CBD that often is all. edit: or just do data collection for Brissie directly: https://betterintersections.jakecoppinger.com/?lat=-27.5&lon=153 https://betterintersections.jakecoppinger.com/?lat=-27.5&lon...
- jakecopp 3y ago
  You don't have to set up another instance - this site works for anywhere in Australia (or the world - but maybe their traffic lights are too different. Currently I just default the view to Sydney but this could be modified to view where a user is (rough IP geolocation), and I've got a work in progress PR for storing the lat/lon/zoom in the URL so you can bookmark/share locations.
  - aldonius 3y ago
    I guess the question I have is what you intend the main interface experience to be for people - the form or the map? I imagine there's a few trick things that could be done on the map page like nailing the coordinates, doing the timer --- and then bouncing over to Google Forms via the power of pre-filled links.
    - jakecopp 3y ago
      Definitely would prefer the map (and associated pages/possibly form in future) to the be main interface. The Google Form makes it very easy to bootstrap collecting emails (reliably) to prevent any spam that may be submitted, but it's long and confusing to new users (already got that feedback). Ideally in future you could click on an intersection on the map, use a timer in the page (could optimise the UX), associate an email address with a one time code (on first load/if no cookie) then submit (with the OSM node ID already filled in so I don't have to manually update that). So that would be the long term roadmap - if it gets enough traction and I have time!

rconti 3y ago

Don't forget the infuriating situation where infra designers/whomever decide "we can't put a sidewalk here", or governments allow construction to close a sidewalk for years on end. Why it's acceptable to put up signs saying "don't cross here" and instead require that people cross the road 3 times to go a few dozens of feet is beyond me.

fatnoah 3y ago
> Don't forget the infuriating situation where infra designers/whomever decide "we can't put a sidewalk here", or governments allow construction to close a sidewalk for years on end. My favorite instance of this happened when the town decided to improve the dodgy sidewalk that followed a busy road. The sidewalk was in rough shape, and while it was walkable, it would have been impossible for anyone with a mobility impairment. Improving the sidewalk meant that it was closed for almost 8 months. During that time, I had to walk at the edge of the vehicle travel lane. As winter approached, they finally finished construction and I enjoyed the beautiful condition of the new sidewalk...for about two months. After the first snow storm, it became impassible and, for reasons I never found out, the town never plowed it again. So, I had the option to travel back in traffic, or trudge through the snow. The situation ended up being a factor in me giving up and buying a car.

blindstitch 3y ago

In the USA, the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices has an (I think) reasonable requirements for crossing durations but almost no further recommendations about maximum wait times. This results in completely idiotic timing programs of the signals everywhere that encourage people to cross when cars have a green light. If you want to change it to be more pedestrian friendly, it can cost $20k+ because the signals are programmed in a 40 year old language that only a very small group of highly paid traffic engineers know how to write.

lostlogin 3y ago
> If you want to change it to be more pedestrian friendly, it can cost $20k+ Per set of lights?!
- blindstitch 3y ago
  I could be wrong. I can't locate the source I found originally. Online chatter for a city planning forum said around 20k. This very old information says it's a lot less, but I don't think these numbers would be accurate for a small town with only enough money to fix their signals piecemeal by contractors, or for one that involves smarter programming that works around MUTCD. https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/its/benecost.nsf/ID/215f723db93d293c8525725f00786fd8 https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/its/benecost.nsf/ID/215f723db...
unflxw 3y ago
> the signals are programmed in a 40 year old language that only a very small group of highly paid traffic engineers know how to write. This is interesting. What language is this, or more generally, where can I read more about this?
- mschild 3y ago
  edit: Whops. Just realized theyre talking about the US. Disregard my comment. I'm not entirely sure what OP is talking about, but I think they use a system called SCATS.[0] Looks like the system is actually pretty widely used in some other countries as well. [0] https://www.scats.nsw.gov.au/solutions/products https://www.scats.nsw.gov.au/solutions/products

kfarr 3y ago

This is awesome, and I'd add that in doing safe streets advocacy in SF I have learned that to make changes like these it's helpful to record the entire signal timing for all phases to make more concrete recommendations for changing timing. In other words you'll have to take time from other signal phases to increase ped timing and without that data it's hard to advocate for change. Here is one example of a full phase visualization: https://glitch.com/edit/#!/aframe-ped-signals?path=README.md%3A1%3A0 https://glitch.com/edit/#!/aframe-ped-signals?path=README.md...

leothelion_ 3y ago

I’d very much like to see for Melbourne!

jakecopp 3y ago
You can add data for intersections in Melbourne! The default view is Sydney but it works everywhere. PRs welcome for setting initial landing coordinates to rough geolocation!

pedalpete 3y ago

I'm surprised traffic light timing is a focus for increasing cycling trips. Bikes can use the same timing as car traffic (we go when the cars go). I know the "bike paths" of sydney have their own little green cycling man, but I mostly ignore those. The bike lanes are infuriating. with multiple areas requiring the crossing of 3 lanes of traffic where the bike lane is on the right side going into an intersection, and on the left on the other side of the intersection. I (and many other cyclists I've seen) are regularly just cycling in car lanes because the bike lane is incompressible in some areas. Often, it is only for a block or 2 until you can get back into the bike lane safely, and stay in the lane for at least a few blocks. I often wonder if the person who is in charge of designing bike lanes in Sydney even has a bike.

whophd 3y ago

Are we documenting “silent walks”, where timing is flexibly maximised into whatever the car traffic is doing? They’re a tiny percentage overall, but on quiet t-junctions they can last hours in the dead of night. “Silent” because the accessibility sounds deactivate until the phase changes.