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It's absolutely not for everyone, but I think the anonymous nature makes it so low stakes it's trivially easy for me to just not care, not engage. You can just

It's absolutely not for everyone, but I think the anonymous nature makes it so low stakes it's trivially easy for me to just not care, not engage. You can just ignore things you don't like!

mjr00 3y ago
> You can just ignore things you don't like! I do think this is one of the big hidden problems with upvote/like systems. Seeing a post you don't like or disagree with on Twitter/Facebook/Reddit with a lot of likes/retweets/upvotes/etc psychologically puts you on the defensive. 10,000 likes on a post you disagree with means you're up against an army of 10,000 people who disagreed with you! So you do what's natural: you fight back, you summon your own army of people (hoping to get a respectable counter-army of likes). This creates a toxic environment and you can see it play out on Twitter: every Democrat-leaning tweet will have its top reply be a Republican-leaning tweet with a counter-point, and every Republican with a Democrat. Meanwhile, on 4chan or other old-style message board withouts those systems... yeah, it's just some asshole with a stupid opinion. Just ignore them, no need to waste effort engaging.
- ddq 3y ago
  Arguably, the addition of showing links to all the replies to a comment could have contributed towards 4chan's drift further into engagement-baiting content. It's the closest analogue to the visual, numeric feedback mechanism you describe. Interesting because from a functional user experience perspective, it's an objectively useful feature for navigating discussions. An obvious addition in terms of web design, yet with unforeseen repercussions. The medium is the message, after all.
  - mjr00 3y ago
    Very true! But even then, the dynamic is a bit different. Reply-links on a post that's an obvious joke are analogous to upvotes, but reply-links on a politically controversial topic could be anything, though most likely disagreements. Plus the absolute number is going to be orders of magnitudes smaller than likes. But I do agree it's contributed to bait posts a lot, yeah. Interesting to see the impact of such a seemingly small UX change.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  This is why hiding dislikes isn’t a solution to anything. The problem is metrics on either likes/dislikes.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  In what way is it natural to summon an army of people? Have you really done this?
  - mtrower 3y ago
    I think you sort of do it indirectly. You frame your counter-response in a way that is likely to garner the support and upvotes of the opposing camp (opposing to post you're arguing with). Battle lines having been drawn, the internet goes to war.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago
      That's not summoning. That's just people being there already who agree with you...
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  It's actually even worse on some sites. For example Reddit does not necessarily show the real sum of votes to begin with, but a different one created in an intransparent manner since the code isn't public. They call this "vote-fuzzing". Arbitrary changes to the ranking algorithm have over the years completely changed what users see when they look at the vote count¹, and I suspect that's just the tip of the iceberg that's made public. ¹https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/28hjga/reddit_changes_individual_updown_vote_counts_no/ https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/28hjga/reddi...
  - account42 3y ago
    Right, this is sold as a technique against vote manipulators (to not let them know if their bots are working) but it requires a lot of trust in the operator not abusing it.
  - mtrower 3y ago
    What the... My innocence =(
- lenkite 3y ago
  > 10,000 likes on a post you disagree with means you're up against an army of 10,000 people who disagreed with you More like army of 10k bots.
- snvzz 3y ago
  >4chan It is remarkable how well moderated that site is. Illegal posts tend to get removed immediately, while antisocial types get quickly dealt with (banned). Site is oddly infamous, but certainly does not deserve the hate.
JohnFen 3y ago
Sure, which is why I ignore 4chan. I don't want or need to be associated with/exposed to that crowd. I was just very surprised to hear it described as egalitarian and accessible. It's the cesspool that all other cesspools are measured by.
- c22 3y ago
  The most accessible places tend to become cesspools since being anti-social is one of the main traits that limits people's access to more exclusive places.
  - tacocataco 3y ago
    If only there were more accessible places online, these people would be diluted throughout the net.
- kodah 3y ago
  > I don't want or need to be associated with/exposed to that crowd. Remember Anonymous? That was all derivative of various chan boards and Something Awful. You probably overlap with those users more than you'd like to admit. A thing I realized was that there's a lot of people who lurk the chans and end up promoting the more mainstream-ready content to their other communities. The chans are essentially the boiler room in terms of their role in the ecosystem of the internet.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Of course I remember them. How does this relate to > You probably overlap with those users more than you'd like to admit. 4chan is absolutely not a group I overlap much with.
    - account42 3y ago
      Oh you share at least 99% with the individuals there whether you want to admit it to yourself or not.
- 3y ago
emodendroket 3y ago
The logical endpoint is "not engaging" by not visiting
- account42 3y ago
  Do you also avoid restaurants because you don't like some of the dishes there?
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    No but I’m not made to eat them against my will when I’m trying to have the other dishes.
banannaise 3y ago
I would hesitate to use any definition of "community" that involves neither caring nor engaging with most of it out of necessity to protect yourself.

It's absolutely not for everyone, but I think the anonymous nature makes it so low stakes it's trivially easy for me to just not care, not engage. You can just ignore things you don't like!

mjr00 3y ago

> You can just ignore things you don't like! I do think this is one of the big hidden problems with upvote/like systems. Seeing a post you don't like or disagree with on Twitter/Facebook/Reddit with a lot of likes/retweets/upvotes/etc psychologically puts you on the defensive. 10,000 likes on a post you disagree with means you're up against an army of 10,000 people who disagreed with you! So you do what's natural: you fight back, you summon your own army of people (hoping to get a respectable counter-army of likes). This creates a toxic environment and you can see it play out on Twitter: every Democrat-leaning tweet will have its top reply be a Republican-leaning tweet with a counter-point, and every Republican with a Democrat. Meanwhile, on 4chan or other old-style message board withouts those systems... yeah, it's just some asshole with a stupid opinion. Just ignore them, no need to waste effort engaging.

ddq 3y ago
Arguably, the addition of showing links to all the replies to a comment could have contributed towards 4chan's drift further into engagement-baiting content. It's the closest analogue to the visual, numeric feedback mechanism you describe. Interesting because from a functional user experience perspective, it's an objectively useful feature for navigating discussions. An obvious addition in terms of web design, yet with unforeseen repercussions. The medium is the message, after all.
- mjr00 3y ago
  Very true! But even then, the dynamic is a bit different. Reply-links on a post that's an obvious joke are analogous to upvotes, but reply-links on a politically controversial topic could be anything, though most likely disagreements. Plus the absolute number is going to be orders of magnitudes smaller than likes. But I do agree it's contributed to bait posts a lot, yeah. Interesting to see the impact of such a seemingly small UX change.
spacemadness 3y ago
This is why hiding dislikes isn’t a solution to anything. The problem is metrics on either likes/dislikes.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
In what way is it natural to summon an army of people? Have you really done this?
- mtrower 3y ago
  I think you sort of do it indirectly. You frame your counter-response in a way that is likely to garner the support and upvotes of the opposing camp (opposing to post you're arguing with). Battle lines having been drawn, the internet goes to war.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    That's not summoning. That's just people being there already who agree with you...
trompetenaccoun 3y ago
It's actually even worse on some sites. For example Reddit does not necessarily show the real sum of votes to begin with, but a different one created in an intransparent manner since the code isn't public. They call this "vote-fuzzing". Arbitrary changes to the ranking algorithm have over the years completely changed what users see when they look at the vote count¹, and I suspect that's just the tip of the iceberg that's made public. ¹https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/28hjga/reddit_changes_individual_updown_vote_counts_no/ https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/28hjga/reddi...
- account42 3y ago
  Right, this is sold as a technique against vote manipulators (to not let them know if their bots are working) but it requires a lot of trust in the operator not abusing it.
- mtrower 3y ago
  What the... My innocence =(
lenkite 3y ago
> 10,000 likes on a post you disagree with means you're up against an army of 10,000 people who disagreed with you More like army of 10k bots.
snvzz 3y ago
>4chan It is remarkable how well moderated that site is. Illegal posts tend to get removed immediately, while antisocial types get quickly dealt with (banned). Site is oddly infamous, but certainly does not deserve the hate.

JohnFen 3y ago

Sure, which is why I ignore 4chan. I don't want or need to be associated with/exposed to that crowd. I was just very surprised to hear it described as egalitarian and accessible. It's the cesspool that all other cesspools are measured by.

c22 3y ago
The most accessible places tend to become cesspools since being anti-social is one of the main traits that limits people's access to more exclusive places.
- tacocataco 3y ago
  If only there were more accessible places online, these people would be diluted throughout the net.
kodah 3y ago
> I don't want or need to be associated with/exposed to that crowd. Remember Anonymous? That was all derivative of various chan boards and Something Awful. You probably overlap with those users more than you'd like to admit. A thing I realized was that there's a lot of people who lurk the chans and end up promoting the more mainstream-ready content to their other communities. The chans are essentially the boiler room in terms of their role in the ecosystem of the internet.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Of course I remember them. How does this relate to > You probably overlap with those users more than you'd like to admit. 4chan is absolutely not a group I overlap much with.
  - account42 3y ago
    Oh you share at least 99% with the individuals there whether you want to admit it to yourself or not.
3y ago

emodendroket 3y ago

The logical endpoint is "not engaging" by not visiting

account42 3y ago
Do you also avoid restaurants because you don't like some of the dishes there?
- emodendroket 3y ago
  No but I’m not made to eat them against my will when I’m trying to have the other dishes.

banannaise 3y ago

I would hesitate to use any definition of "community" that involves neither caring nor engaging with most of it out of necessity to protect yourself.