4 ms·

Just curious, if you could throw out CSS and start from scratch, what would you do? What's the alternative?

pavlov 3y ago
The fundamental problem with CSS is that it conflates element content styling, layout directives, and compositing configuration into an unholy mess. One way out is to rethink each of these separate problems individually. Element styling is typically about configuring attributes, while layout is more closely related with programming (even if it’s a non-Turing complete environment like constraints). There’s no reason why the same language should try to do both.
giantrobot 3y ago
You could go back to JavaScript style sheets[0]. I'm joking please don't do this it's stupid. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
Have a single common bytecode language for all web dev, including scripting, content definition, and UI. But not js. Support programmatic control of content generation, styling, composition, animation, UI events, backend connections, and object-based component reuse with standard libraries that implement each feature across multiple platforms. Basically the visual/UI part of iPhone/Android dev but in a browser, perhaps with some standard backend APIs. The amount of duplication in modern CRUD development is just insane. Every project reinvents the same wheels. CSS is part of that because it's so disconnected from the content and the UI that it has to be customised for each project and can't be reused - except as a reset file, which shouldn't even be needed.
- icedchai 3y ago
  This sounds like Java w/more modern UI.
- goto11 3y ago
  Like Java applets or Silverligt? The problem with those formats is they are black boxes - you can't link or search or anything which makes the web accessible and interconnected. They are more like apps than the web.
mmphosis 3y ago
I have already thrown out Cascading StyleSheets. The alternative is HTML. If I could throw out HTML and start from scratch is a better question.
- goto11 3y ago
  HTML is not an alternative to CSS. The HTML still has to be presented in some way. HTML without any CSS just means it uses the default browser-supplied style sheet.
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    Maybe he meant using HTML attributes like bgcolor etc.
    - mmphosis 3y ago
      I mean throwing out HTML and HTML attributes altogether and starting from scratch. It's time to evolve out of PostScript, Portable Document Format (PDF), SGML, HyperText Markup Language (HTML) + CSS + JavaScript, markdown, and move to a fuller open document standard that brings all the amazing features of the old formats without all the baggage and mistakes. Just get rid of the crappy stuff and focus on the good stuff.

The fundamental problem with CSS is that it conflates element content styling, layout directives, and compositing configuration into an unholy mess. One way out is to rethink each of these separate problems individually. Element styling is typically about configuring attributes, while layout is more closely related with programming (even if it’s a non-Turing complete environment like constraints). There’s no reason why the same language should try to do both.

giantrobot 3y ago

You could go back to JavaScript style sheets[0]. I'm joking please don't do this it's stupid. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

Have a single common bytecode language for all web dev, including scripting, content definition, and UI. But not js. Support programmatic control of content generation, styling, composition, animation, UI events, backend connections, and object-based component reuse with standard libraries that implement each feature across multiple platforms. Basically the visual/UI part of iPhone/Android dev but in a browser, perhaps with some standard backend APIs. The amount of duplication in modern CRUD development is just insane. Every project reinvents the same wheels. CSS is part of that because it's so disconnected from the content and the UI that it has to be customised for each project and can't be reused - except as a reset file, which shouldn't even be needed.

icedchai 3y ago
This sounds like Java w/more modern UI.
goto11 3y ago
Like Java applets or Silverligt? The problem with those formats is they are black boxes - you can't link or search or anything which makes the web accessible and interconnected. They are more like apps than the web.

mmphosis 3y ago

I have already thrown out Cascading StyleSheets. The alternative is HTML. If I could throw out HTML and start from scratch is a better question.

goto11 3y ago
HTML is not an alternative to CSS. The HTML still has to be presented in some way. HTML without any CSS just means it uses the default browser-supplied style sheet.
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  Maybe he meant using HTML attributes like bgcolor etc.
  - mmphosis 3y ago
    I mean throwing out HTML and HTML attributes altogether and starting from scratch. It's time to evolve out of PostScript, Portable Document Format (PDF), SGML, HyperText Markup Language (HTML) + CSS + JavaScript, markdown, and move to a fuller open document standard that brings all the amazing features of the old formats without all the baggage and mistakes. Just get rid of the crappy stuff and focus on the good stuff.