3 ms·

I was reading about dowery/dower/brideprices in the past week, mostly on wikipedia but chased a few links. There is a very interesting hypothesis about the orig

I was reading about dowery/dower/brideprices in the past week, mostly on wikipedia but chased a few links. There is a very interesting hypothesis about the origins of these practices in prehistoric human cultures. in hoe-based agriculture, which tended to predominate in mobile/migratory cultures, farming was "women's work" in plough-based agriculture, which tended to predominate where people were stationary and land was "owned", farming was "men's work" Where women did agricultural work, a brideprice was paid, as per the theory, because a women's productive output was valuable. Where men did agricultural work, a bride was expected to bring a dowery, paid as a transfer from her family's land-based wealth. I find it interesting how very rough "logic" from many thousand years ago would continue to affect us today.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Standard religious practice. In the US, it has a huge impact on our politics. Other nations have their own issues with religion, as in India. Also, as any engineer can attest, “We’ve always done it this way” is quite powerful.
renewiltord 3y ago
What were the factors that had hoe-based agriculture be "women's work"? One would imagine that the increased strength and endurance of men for physical labour would have resulted in the opposite: when you have the plough and the dray horse, farming is less dependent on physical stature. The idea of which direction the money was paid being related to the perceived productive output of the woman does make sense. It's the other part of the argument that isn't so obvious to me. I can look it up, etc. but if you happen to have the links available from history that would speed things up for me. Much appreciated.
- b112 3y ago
  My understanding is that the plow and horse, still required significant muscle to keep it on track, push it into the ground, whilst the horse was pulling forward. Additionally, rocks had to be moved (even in older fields, rocks appear, big rocks, over time).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hammock 3y ago
    Yes to all of this, plus the fact that it is easier to attend to children when working a hoe, compared to when working a plow (and possibly animal)
- ygjb 3y ago
  I think a lot of folks who don't have an agricultural background mistake how different the processes are. Often when a person uses a hoe in modern times (for example, urban gardeners), they use it the way one would use a plough - long troughs or lines, except that they then plant seeds in a a few locations on the line, with the belief that turning the earth has some significant impact. Tilling can be a valuable process depending on what you are growing, the quality of the soil, when it is done, etc, but it is very distinct from using a hoe to plant seeds. In practice, planting with a hoe is extremely light work, you turn the earth (or even just make a little hole), plant the seeds, maybe apply some fertilizer, or fresh soil, then close up the hole. With a plough, you cut a long line, usually with pack animal or mechanical assistance, and then follow and plant seeds along the entire line. This can mean managing a large animal, or operating heavy machinery, or both! Plus there is the issue of removing obstacles (dead trees/plants, rocks, and other debris). Setting aside the physical requirements for the different planting methods, there is also the issue of the capital cost of farming. https://blog.oup.com/2013/06/agriculture-gender-roles-norms-society/ https://blog.oup.com/2013/06/agriculture-gender-roles-norms-... is a decent high level article that covers how and why this is thought to contribute to gender roles.
pempem 3y ago
One doesn't have to look thousands of years into the past for an agrian fictional/proposed culture. America had dowries until the mid 1800s and the wealthiest among us globally still predominantly define marriage in romantic and business terms. The issue that most comments do not discuss, that exacerbates this situation, is the idea that a bride marries into another family and becomes that family's responsibility. Dowry is most often demanded by the parents of the marrying groom, and negative actions are often taken on as a group rather than an individual. As a result: - laws are written to impact the entire family. - The logic is 'one more mouth for the working FIL to feed' esp when marriages are younger and the groom's career is still growing. - women have limited cultural rights to exit relationships in hindu society with massive repercussions socially and in their employment I do want to point out for that last one, the stink of divorce has only recently begun to dissipate. Women in the US in our grandparents and great grandparents era could not bank independently, it was very difficult to get even near parity of pay and often kept cash or valuables to pawn so that they would have an exit or a net if their partner was unsuitable or died.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

Standard religious practice. In the US, it has a huge impact on our politics. Other nations have their own issues with religion, as in India. Also, as any engineer can attest, “We’ve always done it this way” is quite powerful.

renewiltord 3y ago

What were the factors that had hoe-based agriculture be "women's work"? One would imagine that the increased strength and endurance of men for physical labour would have resulted in the opposite: when you have the plough and the dray horse, farming is less dependent on physical stature. The idea of which direction the money was paid being related to the perceived productive output of the woman does make sense. It's the other part of the argument that isn't so obvious to me. I can look it up, etc. but if you happen to have the links available from history that would speed things up for me. Much appreciated.

b112 3y ago
My understanding is that the plow and horse, still required significant muscle to keep it on track, push it into the ground, whilst the horse was pulling forward. Additionally, rocks had to be moved (even in older fields, rocks appear, big rocks, over time).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hammock 3y ago
  Yes to all of this, plus the fact that it is easier to attend to children when working a hoe, compared to when working a plow (and possibly animal)
ygjb 3y ago
I think a lot of folks who don't have an agricultural background mistake how different the processes are. Often when a person uses a hoe in modern times (for example, urban gardeners), they use it the way one would use a plough - long troughs or lines, except that they then plant seeds in a a few locations on the line, with the belief that turning the earth has some significant impact. Tilling can be a valuable process depending on what you are growing, the quality of the soil, when it is done, etc, but it is very distinct from using a hoe to plant seeds. In practice, planting with a hoe is extremely light work, you turn the earth (or even just make a little hole), plant the seeds, maybe apply some fertilizer, or fresh soil, then close up the hole. With a plough, you cut a long line, usually with pack animal or mechanical assistance, and then follow and plant seeds along the entire line. This can mean managing a large animal, or operating heavy machinery, or both! Plus there is the issue of removing obstacles (dead trees/plants, rocks, and other debris). Setting aside the physical requirements for the different planting methods, there is also the issue of the capital cost of farming. https://blog.oup.com/2013/06/agriculture-gender-roles-norms-society/ https://blog.oup.com/2013/06/agriculture-gender-roles-norms-... is a decent high level article that covers how and why this is thought to contribute to gender roles.

pempem 3y ago

One doesn't have to look thousands of years into the past for an agrian fictional/proposed culture. America had dowries until the mid 1800s and the wealthiest among us globally still predominantly define marriage in romantic and business terms. The issue that most comments do not discuss, that exacerbates this situation, is the idea that a bride marries into another family and becomes that family's responsibility. Dowry is most often demanded by the parents of the marrying groom, and negative actions are often taken on as a group rather than an individual. As a result: - laws are written to impact the entire family. - The logic is 'one more mouth for the working FIL to feed' esp when marriages are younger and the groom's career is still growing. - women have limited cultural rights to exit relationships in hindu society with massive repercussions socially and in their employment I do want to point out for that last one, the stink of divorce has only recently begun to dissipate. Women in the US in our grandparents and great grandparents era could not bank independently, it was very difficult to get even near parity of pay and often kept cash or valuables to pawn so that they would have an exit or a net if their partner was unsuitable or died.