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Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

230 points by sephlietz 15y ago

fr0sty 15y ago
I wonder if as much digital ink would have been spilled on this whole kerfluffle if the original article had not used the term 'bricked'. Bricking, at least in my mind, is something that happens suddenly usually when attempting something at least slightly risky. Jailbreaking iPhones, replacing your laptop harddrive, desoldering components in an audio amplifier and other 'warranty voiding' all carry some 'bricking' risk. The situation with Tesla is more akin to leaving your (very expensive) bike out in the rain: Given enough time it will rust up and need to be extensively repaired but I don't think you would say you 'bricked' it...
- joenathan 15y ago
  That would be the context that the term "bricking" is most often used in but the term itself simply means the object in question has been made just as useful as a clay brick.
- abruzzi 15y ago
  It need not be risky or warranty voiding. Bricking has been applied to software updated pushed out by vendors in the past, so I don't think it implies anything more than something that causes something to lose all function and become inert, like a brik.
  - fr0sty 15y ago
    A vendor software push is risky even if well tested... > "something that causes something to lose all function and become inert" add "suddenly and without warning" and I'd agree with that definition.
URSpider94 15y ago
This is PR mastery. Nowhere in the release does Tesla refute that owners have "bricked" their batteries. Nowhere in the release do they say that the battery can not be bricked by leaving it for a long period without a recharge. All they say is that it would take a period of weeks for a Tesla roadster to reach 0% charge, and that the Model S has battery disconnect technology that can extend this to several months. They also point out that the car will provide increasingly strenuous warnings to plug it in (which, no matter how loud they are, would be hard to hear from across the country, if you've left it in an airport parking lot). If it were true that a Tesla battery pack couldn't be destroyed by letting it fully discharge, or that it had never happened, then they would have mentioned it in the release. In fact, they take the opposite tack, re-emphasizing near the top of the document that users should always plug the car in when parked. Don't get me wrong, I'm still very enamored by Teslas, and I don't think that this is any different than the owner of a gas-powered car letting it run out of oil and seizing the engine -- it's neglect. If you don't get it by now, Tesla owners, you need to plug in your cars.
- fijal 15y ago
  "mastery" is not a very correct word in my opinion. What they do is they provide absolutely 0 information, while still calling the blog a rumor. I was very skeptical about the blog post up until now, when tesla essentially agreed to all it's claims, by not refuting any. TL;DR; version of the blog: "Yes, it's true, we charge a lot of money for forgetting to plug in your tesla, don't do that or you'll regret".
  - ChuckMcM 15y ago
    This was my take away as well but the mastery part is where it sounds like they are refuting something. Basically, having read that post three times, I conclude that if you ignore the warnings and let your battery pack completely discharge your car will be unusable, aka a 'brick'. Which completely validates the 'rogue bloggers' point that it is a 'known issue' and one to be aware of. I found the 'no oil' comparison to be weak. Sure if you run your gasoline engine vehicle with no oil it will likely seize up and require an engine block replacement. However, you can leave a gasoline powered car in a barn for 20 years and then re-discover it, fill up all the proper fluids and run it. (assuming it was in running condition when it was stored). You won't have to replace the engine. The part that is missing from the Tesla response is, if your car is in this state (fully discharged), what can be done. Is there a way to 'reboot' the car? And if so what is the procedure? Can anyone do it or only the factory? And why? If the batteries become disconnected does that also brick your car? Or can you just re-attach them ? Why doesn't the Tesla vehicle have a 'full power down' state for storage?
    - nuclear_eclipse 15y ago
      "Why doesn't the Tesla vehicle have a 'full power down' state for storage?" I assume this is because of the nature of Li-ion batteries. Even if you aren't pulling any current from the battery, they will still discharge over time, and eventually go through a chemical process rendering them unusable and/or dangerous. Having a "long-term storage" mode for the vehicle would only serve to make it more likely to happen by lulling owners into a false sense of security. Better to simply reinforce the need to constantly keep the vehicle in a charged-or-charging state.
redthrowaway 15y ago
And so marks the conclusion of yet another Internet shitstorm. Sound and fury, gnashing of teeth, forgotten in a week. All this has happened before, etc.
giberson 15y ago
Am I the only one face palming from reading "Here is why the rumor is unfounded" followed by the first two paragraphs confirming exactly what the blog stated? That batteries must be kept charged, and that if they get too low will contact Tesla HQ?
- ricardobeat 15y ago
  The rumour is unfounded because you have to try really hard to get to that state. You can leave your car in storage or at the airport for weeks as long as it has enough charge to hold, and even if you get to 0% charge you still have 30 days to plug it in before all is lost.
mef 15y ago
Incidentally, does anyone know why the wheels of a 'bricked' car would be locked up, preventing towing?
- Mvandenbergh 15y ago
  Yes, because the systems for disengaging the wheels from the drive train won't work without power.
  - tocomment 15y ago
    Is that a fail-safe or the opposite of a fail-safe? I can't decide...
    - teamonkey 15y ago
      Consider a battery failure while parked on a hill
      - tocomment 15y ago
        Does it not have a "park" setting? How does "park" work in a car with an automatic transmission anyway?
      - seanos 15y ago
        Doesn't it have a handbrake?
      - abruzzi 15y ago
        Park usually does two things--it slips a fixed tooth (pawl) into a gear on the output shaft of the transmission, effectively locking the driven wheels (i.e. front wheels on a front wheel drive car.) It will also unload the gears of the transmission the same as the neutral setting. This is why on some AT cars, the idle speed will creep up a tiny bit after put in PARK or NEUTRAL.
  - randomdata 15y ago
    Does it require more power than a tow vehicle can supply to provide that disengagement?
mellifluousmind 15y ago
One key issue that Tesla PR accidentally omits is whether owners are still responsible for 40K replacement if battery does indeed fail. 40K replacement basically tells user that go get a gas-powered car. If a fuel-injected engine fails, would it still cost just as much to replace? How about a BMW? or Mercedes? or Lexus?
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  I doubt that was accidental.
- cnyc 15y ago
  Exactly. The first article didn't attack the fact that the "bricking" occurs nearly as much as it attached the cost of replacement.
- Geee 15y ago
  Of course you have to pay if you are stupid. Same thing if you destroy your gas-powered car on purpose using some other method. It is not a 'fail', which implies a manufacturing error or similar.
  - shock-value 15y ago
    Except in this case you wouldn't be destroying the battery "on purpose" obviously, but rather through neglect or ignorance. It's a fail in the sense that this technology has been exposed to be clearly unready for wide-scale adoption, and the company in question has barely even acknowledged the issue, let alone outlined steps it is taking to fix it or improve the design.
    - tfb 15y ago
      You can neglect and ignore maintenance of gas-powered engines too. Stop getting oil changes and never check/refill it and see what happens to your engine. It will eventually be "bricked". Just like gas-powered vehicles need to be maintained, so do electric ones. EVs actually happen to require less maintenance. Simpler too. I would say that the EV equivalent of oil changes is to keep it charged above some minimum.
verelo 15y ago
No technology or system is perfect, there is a certain level of "acceptable use" that we always need to comply with. I don't think charging a Tesla is that big of an issue, and if you're fortunate enough to own one, you're probably also intelligent enough to plan ahead. In Australia (where I'm originally from) LPG (Propane to everyone in the US & Canada) conversions on Petrol (Gas?) cars is a common thing. Its the same situation, LPG is not available everywhere, and while most LPG cars can run on both fuels...you simply think ahead before you go on some unusual route. It becomes part of your planning for a long trip and that's all there is to it. If you run out of LPG, its a bad situation...you cant just go grab bottle of LPG, its a compressed gas, you actually need to either run the car on normal fuel (Petrol) or get it towed. My bias opinion here is that someone probably mistreated their car, and Tesla told them something like "We tried to help you before this happened, but you ignored us...its in the terms you signed when you bought the car and now there is nothing else we can do to help" Completely reasonable.
miker64 15y ago
If you don't do the basic, fundamental things to maintain your vehicle, it will no longer work. If you are, in fact, unable to grasp that, then you will pay the cost. How is this even a thing?
- burgreblast 15y ago
  Um, because maintaining a gas/diesel/lpg vehicle (or a laptop) doesn't include keeping it continuously fueled up at the risk of $30K damage. You don't keep your laptop or phone charged on penalty of battery replacement, so why pretend that you're not surprised at the Tesla result?
  - revelation 15y ago
    If you completely discharge a battery, it will take damage. Also, quite obviously, the batteries used in the Tesla are the same kind used in your laptop or phone, just a vastly greater number of them. So yes, maintaining a laptop means keeping it charged. (How do people not know this? Battery 101)
    - ghaff 15y ago
      Raises hand. I did know that it's not good for the life of a battery to continuously deep discharge it. (Though I've seen so much different advice over the years about various battery technologies that someone might easily think it was better for batteries to run them down now and then, a belief that had at least some relevance to NiCads.) However, I confess to not knowing that running down, say, a laptop and then letting it sit uncharged for a long period was a very bad thing.
    - deleted 15y ago
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- sek 15y ago
  Who says they don't inform a buyer about these things, it's nothing to make a promo video about. Who just leaves his car for 12 months somewhere, without caring about it? I know someone who left his motorcycle outside for too long and now rust killed it.
aidenn0 15y ago
I'm still a bit astonished that they didn't implement a deep-sleep in the roadster, but it's good to see they will do it for the Model S.
revelation 15y ago
What is wrong with you people? You are really trying to kill off cars because you got a horse carriage at home. The horse can when coupled reproduce itself, all it takes is some food and water to keep going, its unlikely to break down, you can be flexible by changing from a one-seater to carrying raw material in the blink of an eye. Obviously, the horse is vastly superior to its new "car" competitor. Only a moron would invest in further developing the car, given that it was irrefutably shown to be inferior. -- On a more serious note, I really can't believe this. This is supposed to be a technologically informed crowd, but you are instead acting as if we've got an infinite amount of oil "somewhere down there" and that it's unacceptable to deviate from the three ton monster SUVs that roam the streets in the USA.
- mansolo 15y ago
  I feel you on this one, but building an industry on misinformation is not the way. Another thought: maybe we need to stop being so obsessed and utterly dependent on cars in general. Live locally, support your community, become more self-reliant, leverage personal technogy.
  - gnaffle 15y ago
    I can hardly see that Tesla has provided any misinformation. They have apparently told owners that it is important to keep the batteries charged. Which owners will in the typical usage scenario. Maybe a big, red warning sticker on the door would make people happy?
  - Sanddancer 15y ago
    From everything I've seen, Tesla's been pretty up front as far as what the battery needs, and what sorts of behaviors to expect. As to your other thought, some of us do not want to ghettoize ourselves. Some of us have friends in areas that are, unfortunately, difficult to reach via public transportation. Living locally would mean disconnecting from a great number of people that I care about quite deeply.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
wtvanhest 15y ago
What happens if you leave a gasoline car for 6 months without driving it? That is the comparison I would like to see.
- ghaff 15y ago
  Typically? You'll probably have to jumpstart it. If it is sitting outside you could end up with the parking brake, in particular, stuck. It's not good practice to just walk away from a car for this long (should disconnect battery, put it up on blocks, etc.) but nothing terrible is likely to happen--especially if it's protected from the elements. The running down of batteries in an electric car to the point where they're damaged is definitely a corner case. It's not one that's out of the realm of possibility. (Someone goes to winter house for a few months, leaves car in garage, and the charger isn't hooked up properly or something.) It sounds like the current generation vehicles make it even more of a corner case although I have to wonder what the failure modes of the various protection systems are.
- nwmcsween 15y ago
  Not 6 months but about a year: * Fuel starts to turn into a syrup from evaporation requiring you to drain the tank. (This is a big issue on 2-stroke engines, you need to do a lot more work) * Oil should be replaced due to acidic oil eating away sediment from crank case. * Depending on time of year coolant should be flushed (depends on what mix is already in). * Battery will be dead. * Brake fluid might need to be changed as well. Half of these you can ignore but it will cause wear and isn't good thing.
- jellicle 15y ago
  If you disconnect one of your car battery terminals, it will be perfectly fine for six months. Reconnect the terminal and drive away. It's not necessary to do anything else. The main danger is things like squirrels moving into your engine block, if it's outside.
  - wtvanhest 15y ago
    Not sure why you were downvoted. Seems reasonable to me. And the animal threat is real.
blhack 15y ago
Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let it go flat. I'm sure some of the 5 owners who have had this happened knew that the car would go dead, but I'm sure that all of them figured that that just meant that they would have to charge it. Tesla: here is how to fix this, and I'm asking that you do this on behalf of all electronic vehicle manufacturers (to keep people from being scared off the things by blogs like this). Release a statement that follows the standard 3-step press release of oops: --- 1) "Own it". -- We fucked up here. This was our bad. We were stupid to believe that the general public would understand that letting the battery on their car go dead would cost them $40,000. This was incredibly stupid of us, and is 100% our fault. We take responsibility for this. 2) "How we're fixing it" -- The 5 people who have had this happen have all been contacted by Tesla motors. We're shipping a tech and a battery to all of them, and all of their cars will be back on the road by next week. 3) "Why this won't happen again" -- From now on, we're including a physical battery disconnect. A device will attach to the battery terminals that is normally off, and requires that the battery be at 5%[1] charge to close. If the battery drops below this, it physically disconnects the battery from the rest of the system, and doesn't allow for any parasitic electronics to drain it further. [1]: 5% is a made up number. --- Of course this won't happen, but a PR-spectator can dream. Tesla: you bungled this one. Badly. You're hurting the entire EV industry. Suck it up and admit you were wrong.
- davedx 15y ago
  The problem is, I think, that a battery will discharge even if it's physically disconnected. I do wonder why the batteries become 'bricked', though. All I've heard so far is just that 'they do', not why.
  - gvb 15y ago
    "sounds" answered that previously http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3619112 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3619112 He referenced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrochemistry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrochem... "The overall reaction has its limits. Overdischarge supersaturates lithium cobalt oxide, leading to the production of lithium oxide, possibly by the following irreversible reaction:"
sr3d 15y ago
This is the weakest "anti-rumor" corporate response ever. After all that lengthy passive-aggressive "We're great, but you need to charge your battery", there's not a single statement about what would happen if the battery runs out, which is precisely what the original article is about. Tesla, stop beating around the bush like a politician, grow up and answer the million-dollar question like a man: What will happen once the car's battery is completely depleted? (life-line hint: it will get bricked)
mikeash 15y ago
Here's something I'm still unclear on: how strongly were owners warned about this beforehand? If Tesla cars come with a bright red warning on the driver's side window saying IF YOU DO NOT KEEP THIS CAR CHARGED THEN YOU RUN THE RISK OF REPAIRS COSTING UP TO $40,000 then I'd say Tesla is completely in the right here. If they didn't mention this anywhere and it's just something owners discover because they use it in a way that Tesla didn't think they should, then Tesla is completely in the wrong. If they did something in between, then it's in between. I may have missed it, but so far I haven't seen this explained.
- morrow 15y ago
  These (apparent) e-mails between an owner with the dead battery issue and Tesla seem to indicate that there is a a 'built-in notification system' for this, but it wasn't added for the first 500 cars : http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1 http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1
  - mikeash 15y ago
    A problem like this really needs advance warning, not just a notification when the problem is about to develop, since the owner may not be in a position to get the car plugged in if they don't know it could occur beforehand.
    - Groxx 15y ago
      Which is why there are warnings in the manuals. Which puts it on par with changing the oil in a regular car, if less culturally-obvious. Reading a manual for something you spent $100k on seems a reasonable prerequisite, especially if you have any interest in keeping it running.
deleted 15y ago
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moomin 15y ago
TL;DR; A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable. We'd like to confirm the rumour. Seriously, I find it breathtaking, for all the reasons people have already given. It's a case study in saying "yes" while giving the impression of saying "no".
JS_startup 15y ago
What a terrible release. Is it still a rumor if the company who makes the product just confirmed that it's true? What happens when the battery runs all the way out? Why does it happen? What's being done to resolve it? PR mastery indeed..
abruzzi 15y ago
This is a textbook example of a non-denial denial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial
Torrents 15y ago
I registered at Tesla motors website so I could comment, but it says to login to comment, even when I'm logged in. When I click 'login' it says I'm already logged in. I would like to ask if it's true or not that any batteries have become inoperable due to being drained completely. Also If that does occur, what is the cost of replacement, and is it at all covered by warranty. It doesn't seem like that answer is forthcoming...
- maxerickson 15y ago
  It seems pretty clear to me that they do not plan on offering warranties against batteries sitting unplugged for long periods of time.
solsenNet 15y ago
quote "spreading a rumor" turns out in this case the rumor is true... well the first automobiles needed to be started with a crank on the front grill. sometimes the crank would catch and whip around an break the user's arm. its a neat thing that even in this day and age, people aren't completely shielded from being on the cutting edge. the 2020 Teslas are going to be amazing.
mmuro 15y ago
Even though this response doesn't address everything that was brought up by the original post, I still find this whole thing fascinating.
functionform 15y ago
tl;dr don't take your tesla camping, or it will 'discharge' coughbrickcough
jellicle 15y ago
Tesla, what's the cost of bundling a solar trickle charger in with your vehicle? Either build it into the roof (next generation, obviously) or just buy one that sits on the dashboard and throw it in with purchase. "Please to be using this when leaving vehicle at airport. Thank you much, Tesla." Maybe there's some reason this won't work, but... you need to work with your customers' expectations. Some of them are going to leave the vehicle unplugged for a while, and they're going to be pissed if the vehicle battery is destroyed.
- jws 15y ago
  30 watt drain. You will need 720 watt hours per day which will be around a square meter of solar cells. Won't work in the parking garage, snow, or Seattle. Just don't leave your tesla at the airport of 12 weeks. That's expensive all by itself.
  - krallja 15y ago
    Do you need the full 30W to keep the battery alive, or is that for the whole electrical system on standby?
    - jws 15y ago
      I suspect it is dominated by self discharge. By that is just guessing at the load.
deleted 15y ago
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vollmond 15y ago
Even if it is in the owner's manual - and even if it is prominent in the manual - how many of you have ever actually read the manual when you get a new car? I know I have only ever looked when I actively needed something: the meaning of a warning light, how to operate the disc changer, something like that. It is entirely conceivable for someone to own a relatively new car for years without needed to look in there. edit: and yes, I realize it would probably make sense to check it out when buying a type of car that is relatively new, but that doesn't mean even a significant minority of new owners will.
aero142 15y ago
Why is this thread so filled with hate? This all sounds very reasonable to me. They clearly acknowledge that the battery must be maintained properly and they seem to be doing to the right things to minimize the risk. They then show very clearly that the total amount of maintenance is less than that of a gasoline vehicle, w/ oil and scheduled maintenance. There are a bunch of things like breaking your timing belt that will break a gasoline engine. This all sounds very reasonable to me. Why is everyone freaking out?
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  Tesla is a corporation, they make money by selling things. Sometimes those things have limitations or imperfections. By the rules of anti-capitalist internet logic that makes Tesla an evil Robber Barron trying to scam people.
- snowwrestler 15y ago
  A surprising number of people, even within the technology field, don't like change that disrupts their personal habits. Hence the constant low-intensity warfare over the various Linux distros and interfaces. In this case a lot of folks are getting emotionally involved because this story serves as proof that electric cars can't be maintained with the exact same habits that an ICE car is maintained. Habits are a personal things, and can be difficult to change. A lot of people will fight to preserve them rather than adapt them.
stitchy 15y ago
The comments here seem to fall into two unrelated categories: "Tesla isn't telling customers the whole story" and "What did people expect to happen when they left their car unplugged for months?" Both are valid points. Why are you arguing? The points don't seem mutually exclusive to me. Tesla has a lot going for it. They make innovative cars, and I would love to own one. That doesn't make the company's PR responses any less defensive and cagey. The response for this particular issue is a big turn off for me. I would definitely prefer that they didn't contradict themselves within the first three paragraphs. I get it. Owners of Tesla cars need to charge their cars or they will be out $40,000. That makes sense to me. Batteries don't last forever. My Mother however doesn't care how the car works. She just wants it to work. She'll do the maintenance that you ask her to do, but she's not going to know why. So, she won't know why she can't leave the car at the airport for a month. That's why it's important for Tesla to say, "yes this is an important issue that is part of maintaining your car." Not, "A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable." If my Mother read that last sentence, she might say to herself, "oh, I guess that blogger was just lying," and move on without reading the whole article, now assuming that it's not possible to "brick" her car. I also lay some blame at Michael Degusta's feet. I don't think that it was appropriate for him to title his article "'It’s A Brick' – Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem." I don't see this as a design problem. It works. The potential for bricking your car is just something you'll have to watch out for, just like not changing your oil is something you need to watch out for. I think that Tesla was just reacting against the accusation that they had a design flaw. As long as they make sure that all of their customers know of the issue, it's not a design flaw. At that point it's maintenance. That's where I think that Tesla failed today. They skimped on their responsibility of informing the customer of important facts, so that they could come out smelling like roses. P.S. Incidentally, if I were to take a trip to my mountain home in Italy for half a year, roughly how much would I expect to pay in electricity to keep my Tesla vehicle charged? Does it draw a constant amount of power for the entire time that I'm away?
- jrockway 15y ago
  If you can afford a $100,000 car, you are not going to leave it parked at the airport for a month. Tesla does not make cars for people that need a utility vehicle, they make toys for rich people. Some day, this technology will be mass market and the batteries will be more forgiving. Today is not that day.
TwoBit 15y ago
tl;dr - A Tesla car can in fact be bricked. The blogger should write a follow-up article: "Tesla admits that cars can be bricked. They are just a little harder to brick than assumed."
droithomme 15y ago
Wow. Great example of PR spin. It totally confirms the bricking claims by refusing to outright deny them. Instead it just repeats that you are supposed to recharge it and not let the batteries deplete, which is something everyone already acknowledges is true and is not a point of contention. There is also a jab at a "single blogger" bringing the issue up, as if he is some rogue on a vendetta or looking for attention. But then not denying his claims makes this look like an insidious corporate attack on a journalist who actually brought to the public's attention a serious flaw with a product. Very similar to how GM's attacks on Ralph Nader back in the 1970s started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Industry_response http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Industry_re...
jrockway 15y ago
I read this as, "yup, you'll brick your car if you don't keep it plugged in." On the other hand, I manage to keep my cell phone charged at all times, so I can imagine that I'd be able to keep my car charged at all times. But I ride a bike, so this doesn't really affect me.
jfasi 15y ago
This is a good release, however there is a better way to present it. By now, gasoline powered cars have been around for a hundred years. Everyone knows they are complex machines with lots of movings parts, and that they require regular maintenance to keep in working shape. What Tesla is putting forward here is the fact that the same principle applies to their electric cars: they need their own kind of TLC to be kept in good shape. However, there is another point Tesla fails to get across. Over those hundred or so years, not only has the need to care of a gas-powered car entered into the public psyche, but also how that care must be carried out. Everyone knows that cars need oil changes and exhaust checks and all that. It's obvious by now. However, that sort of awareness doesn't exist when it comes to electric cars. Saying they need care is great, but Tesla is missing an opportunity to develop the same sort of intuitive public awareness with regard to their vehicles. It's not just 'these cars need care,' it's 'these cars need care, and its of a kind you don't expect, that's OK because you haven't need raised on these vehicles since you were young.' This way, the message would move from being an ever-so-slightly condescending implication that you forgot that electric cars need electricity, and refocuses on the need to augment the way in which people think about maintaining their vehicles.
cenuij 15y ago
Is it true to say that other battery only electric cars don't have the same potential, sorry, to become a brick? If so, this PR response is pure fluff.
- wmf 15y ago
  Other EVs have the same warnings in their manuals.
ssmoot 15y ago
I can't remember ever saying this before, and it's not even really plausible considering how relatively small HN is, but some of the comments here feel like they're directly from the mouth of Tesla. I mean seriously. Cost doesn't matter? Time doesn't matter? Equating going on vacation without your car to never changing your oil? Just because someone says it's neglect, or even has a contract that defines it that way, doesn't mean it's reasonable or even anywhere near the realm of common sense. That's just lawyer speak that is.
phil 15y ago
This sounds a lot like breaking a timing belt on an engine with an interference design. (When that happens the cylinders plow into the valves and there's a lot of carnage). On my car that's a $6-7000 fix if it happens. I bet if there were only 2,500 of those engines in the world it would be a $40k fix, but economies of scale have made it cheaper.
gwern 15y ago
> The earliest Roadsters will take over two months to discharge if parked at a 50 percent charge without being plugged in. What exactly are the conditions for this statement to be true? My laptop battery has lost some of its capacity over the past 2 years - how much capacity do Roadsters lose over time? If I had bought one of the first 100 or whatever, what would that discharge figure be now?
xl-brain 15y ago
So, I guess they are saying you can brick a Tesla roadster. Just to add to the PR observations, I like how they have a few positive comments, but it is actually impossible to make comments on the post.
grellas 15y ago
Deposition line of questioning suggested after reading this piece: Q. Is it true that the battery has catastrophic failure when it drains to zero and is left in that state for a sustained period? A. The company has built in countless safeguards to ensure that the battery never drains to zero. Q. That is not what I asked. Please answer the question. A. It is an unfounded rumor that many owners have incurred such a catastrophic failure and only an irrational fear would permit anyone to believe that. Q. I didn't ask about many owners, only whether it is possible to incur a catastrophic failure as described. Please answer the question. A. Our documentation clearly tells owners that it is vital to keep their car plugged in and we give them ever-escalating warnings to ensure that no rational person could ever let the car get close to that state. Q. I didn't ask about the likelihood of this happening, only whether it can happen. Please answer the question. A. We value our customers more than you can imagine and it is slanderous to suggest that we would subject them to risks that can be avoided. Q. Again, not what I asked, please answer the question. A. Every car has risks of catastrophic failure if it is badly misused. Q. Does this mean the Tesla does too with its engine? A. We will not dignify a mere rumor with an answer to that question. Q. And is it true that it costs $40K to replace the battery? A. I object to that as irrelevant. Q. And that it is not covered under warranty? A. Ditto - irrelevant. Q. And constitutes an uninsurable risk? A. We really are off track here. I will not answer. Q. So you do not regard it as worthy of disclosure to your buyers that, should their battery drain to zero for any sustained period, the only remedy is to replace it at their own expense at a $40K cost. A. That disclosure would not fit with our marketing plans. Plus we say something of the sort at page 487 of our owner's manual. Q.Well I guess this was all pretty pointless. A. Of course, nothing wrong here. Ignore the man behind the curtain. What a stupid thing to ask about anyway. The revolution is apace and you shouldn't bother me with little details.
- eduardordm 15y ago
  Answer to your first question: No. The battery is fine, the stupidity in understanding that Li-ion batteries must never be fully discharged is the only catastrophic failure here. Why can't I down vote your post? :( PS: Don't buy any RC model (or diesel engines!), they all suffer from the same "catastrophic failure".
zephjc 15y ago
Devices are not pets or children. They should not die through owner inaction.
outworlder 15y ago
Assuming Tesla PR is correct, then: 1- All modern battery packs, including laptops, have internal management circuitry that, among other things (like controlling charge so that they will not explode) not allow the damn thing to deplete. When 0% charge is reported the battery still has plenty of juice left. 2- With the given parasitic drain, the battery will last for at least a month left at 0% charge 3- If you leave you car at the airport, you kinda expect to be able to get back, so you won't leave the car at 0% when you depart. And even at 0%, you have a month to plug it in So, barring a zombie apocalypse, what is the expected use-case that actual owners would encounter, to be able to destroy the batteries? It is certainly not normal usage.
eldude 15y ago
The comparison of a fully discharged battery to the negligence of running a car with no or bad oil is disingenuous and likely manipulative. One is a passive issue of forgetting or not knowing a car requires charging when _not operating_, the other is an active negligence of operating a car that is unfit to run. I can neglect a car in storage for decades and getting it started will not require more than the cost of the car. At best it will require a tune-up and a full tank of gas.
pbreit 15y ago
The original blogger and all the naysayers were completely insane to think this was some sort of design oversight and that the Model S would not include significant improvements.
mathattack 15y ago
Seems like a little upselling going on in the defense. That is mastery.
bambax 15y ago
Isn't the whole point of "electric cars" to save energy? Here we learn that they need juice constantly to run "vital systems" and therefore consume energy at all times, even when not running. The owner cannot choose to let his car unplugged because then it'll break down completely and need to be repaired at a cost of 40% of the original price. This is not progress.
jaggs 15y ago
Two words: Nissan Leaf. Quote - "Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary tells Motoramic that the all-electric Nissan Leaf "will never discharge completely, thanks to an advanced battery management system designed to protect the battery from damage." Thanks to a combination of different management and battery cells custom-designed for the car, Nissan has sold 22,000 Leafs and never suffered a similar failure. Tesla's acolytes may find no fault in the charges, but other automakers know there's little margin in blaming customers for not asking the right questions."

230 points by sephlietz 15y ago

I wonder if as much digital ink would have been spilled on this whole kerfluffle if the original article had not used the term 'bricked'. Bricking, at least in my mind, is something that happens suddenly usually when attempting something at least slightly risky. Jailbreaking iPhones, replacing your laptop harddrive, desoldering components in an audio amplifier and other 'warranty voiding' all carry some 'bricking' risk. The situation with Tesla is more akin to leaving your (very expensive) bike out in the rain: Given enough time it will rust up and need to be extensively repaired but I don't think you would say you 'bricked' it...

joenathan 15y ago
That would be the context that the term "bricking" is most often used in but the term itself simply means the object in question has been made just as useful as a clay brick.
abruzzi 15y ago
It need not be risky or warranty voiding. Bricking has been applied to software updated pushed out by vendors in the past, so I don't think it implies anything more than something that causes something to lose all function and become inert, like a brik.
- fr0sty 15y ago
  A vendor software push is risky even if well tested... > "something that causes something to lose all function and become inert" add "suddenly and without warning" and I'd agree with that definition.

URSpider94 15y ago

This is PR mastery. Nowhere in the release does Tesla refute that owners have "bricked" their batteries. Nowhere in the release do they say that the battery can not be bricked by leaving it for a long period without a recharge. All they say is that it would take a period of weeks for a Tesla roadster to reach 0% charge, and that the Model S has battery disconnect technology that can extend this to several months. They also point out that the car will provide increasingly strenuous warnings to plug it in (which, no matter how loud they are, would be hard to hear from across the country, if you've left it in an airport parking lot). If it were true that a Tesla battery pack couldn't be destroyed by letting it fully discharge, or that it had never happened, then they would have mentioned it in the release. In fact, they take the opposite tack, re-emphasizing near the top of the document that users should always plug the car in when parked. Don't get me wrong, I'm still very enamored by Teslas, and I don't think that this is any different than the owner of a gas-powered car letting it run out of oil and seizing the engine -- it's neglect. If you don't get it by now, Tesla owners, you need to plug in your cars.

fijal 15y ago
"mastery" is not a very correct word in my opinion. What they do is they provide absolutely 0 information, while still calling the blog a rumor. I was very skeptical about the blog post up until now, when tesla essentially agreed to all it's claims, by not refuting any. TL;DR; version of the blog: "Yes, it's true, we charge a lot of money for forgetting to plug in your tesla, don't do that or you'll regret".
- ChuckMcM 15y ago
  This was my take away as well but the mastery part is where it sounds like they are refuting something. Basically, having read that post three times, I conclude that if you ignore the warnings and let your battery pack completely discharge your car will be unusable, aka a 'brick'. Which completely validates the 'rogue bloggers' point that it is a 'known issue' and one to be aware of. I found the 'no oil' comparison to be weak. Sure if you run your gasoline engine vehicle with no oil it will likely seize up and require an engine block replacement. However, you can leave a gasoline powered car in a barn for 20 years and then re-discover it, fill up all the proper fluids and run it. (assuming it was in running condition when it was stored). You won't have to replace the engine. The part that is missing from the Tesla response is, if your car is in this state (fully discharged), what can be done. Is there a way to 'reboot' the car? And if so what is the procedure? Can anyone do it or only the factory? And why? If the batteries become disconnected does that also brick your car? Or can you just re-attach them ? Why doesn't the Tesla vehicle have a 'full power down' state for storage?
  - nuclear_eclipse 15y ago
    "Why doesn't the Tesla vehicle have a 'full power down' state for storage?" I assume this is because of the nature of Li-ion batteries. Even if you aren't pulling any current from the battery, they will still discharge over time, and eventually go through a chemical process rendering them unusable and/or dangerous. Having a "long-term storage" mode for the vehicle would only serve to make it more likely to happen by lulling owners into a false sense of security. Better to simply reinforce the need to constantly keep the vehicle in a charged-or-charging state.

redthrowaway 15y ago

And so marks the conclusion of yet another Internet shitstorm. Sound and fury, gnashing of teeth, forgotten in a week. All this has happened before, etc.

giberson 15y ago

Am I the only one face palming from reading "Here is why the rumor is unfounded" followed by the first two paragraphs confirming exactly what the blog stated? That batteries must be kept charged, and that if they get too low will contact Tesla HQ?

ricardobeat 15y ago
The rumour is unfounded because you have to try really hard to get to that state. You can leave your car in storage or at the airport for weeks as long as it has enough charge to hold, and even if you get to 0% charge you still have 30 days to plug it in before all is lost.

mef 15y ago

Incidentally, does anyone know why the wheels of a 'bricked' car would be locked up, preventing towing?

Mvandenbergh 15y ago
Yes, because the systems for disengaging the wheels from the drive train won't work without power.
- tocomment 15y ago
  Is that a fail-safe or the opposite of a fail-safe? I can't decide...
  - teamonkey 15y ago
    Consider a battery failure while parked on a hill
    - tocomment 15y ago
      Does it not have a "park" setting? How does "park" work in a car with an automatic transmission anyway?
    - seanos 15y ago
      Doesn't it have a handbrake?
    - abruzzi 15y ago
      Park usually does two things--it slips a fixed tooth (pawl) into a gear on the output shaft of the transmission, effectively locking the driven wheels (i.e. front wheels on a front wheel drive car.) It will also unload the gears of the transmission the same as the neutral setting. This is why on some AT cars, the idle speed will creep up a tiny bit after put in PARK or NEUTRAL.
- randomdata 15y ago
  Does it require more power than a tow vehicle can supply to provide that disengagement?

mellifluousmind 15y ago

One key issue that Tesla PR accidentally omits is whether owners are still responsible for 40K replacement if battery does indeed fail. 40K replacement basically tells user that go get a gas-powered car. If a fuel-injected engine fails, would it still cost just as much to replace? How about a BMW? or Mercedes? or Lexus?

ceejayoz 15y ago
I doubt that was accidental.
cnyc 15y ago
Exactly. The first article didn't attack the fact that the "bricking" occurs nearly as much as it attached the cost of replacement.
Geee 15y ago
Of course you have to pay if you are stupid. Same thing if you destroy your gas-powered car on purpose using some other method. It is not a 'fail', which implies a manufacturing error or similar.
- shock-value 15y ago
  Except in this case you wouldn't be destroying the battery "on purpose" obviously, but rather through neglect or ignorance. It's a fail in the sense that this technology has been exposed to be clearly unready for wide-scale adoption, and the company in question has barely even acknowledged the issue, let alone outlined steps it is taking to fix it or improve the design.
  - tfb 15y ago
    You can neglect and ignore maintenance of gas-powered engines too. Stop getting oil changes and never check/refill it and see what happens to your engine. It will eventually be "bricked". Just like gas-powered vehicles need to be maintained, so do electric ones. EVs actually happen to require less maintenance. Simpler too. I would say that the EV equivalent of oil changes is to keep it charged above some minimum.

verelo 15y ago

No technology or system is perfect, there is a certain level of "acceptable use" that we always need to comply with. I don't think charging a Tesla is that big of an issue, and if you're fortunate enough to own one, you're probably also intelligent enough to plan ahead. In Australia (where I'm originally from) LPG (Propane to everyone in the US & Canada) conversions on Petrol (Gas?) cars is a common thing. Its the same situation, LPG is not available everywhere, and while most LPG cars can run on both fuels...you simply think ahead before you go on some unusual route. It becomes part of your planning for a long trip and that's all there is to it. If you run out of LPG, its a bad situation...you cant just go grab bottle of LPG, its a compressed gas, you actually need to either run the car on normal fuel (Petrol) or get it towed. My bias opinion here is that someone probably mistreated their car, and Tesla told them something like "We tried to help you before this happened, but you ignored us...its in the terms you signed when you bought the car and now there is nothing else we can do to help" Completely reasonable.

miker64 15y ago

If you don't do the basic, fundamental things to maintain your vehicle, it will no longer work. If you are, in fact, unable to grasp that, then you will pay the cost. How is this even a thing?

burgreblast 15y ago
Um, because maintaining a gas/diesel/lpg vehicle (or a laptop) doesn't include keeping it continuously fueled up at the risk of $30K damage. You don't keep your laptop or phone charged on penalty of battery replacement, so why pretend that you're not surprised at the Tesla result?
- revelation 15y ago
  If you completely discharge a battery, it will take damage. Also, quite obviously, the batteries used in the Tesla are the same kind used in your laptop or phone, just a vastly greater number of them. So yes, maintaining a laptop means keeping it charged. (How do people not know this? Battery 101)
  - ghaff 15y ago
    Raises hand. I did know that it's not good for the life of a battery to continuously deep discharge it. (Though I've seen so much different advice over the years about various battery technologies that someone might easily think it was better for batteries to run them down now and then, a belief that had at least some relevance to NiCads.) However, I confess to not knowing that running down, say, a laptop and then letting it sit uncharged for a long period was a very bad thing.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
sek 15y ago
Who says they don't inform a buyer about these things, it's nothing to make a promo video about. Who just leaves his car for 12 months somewhere, without caring about it? I know someone who left his motorcycle outside for too long and now rust killed it.

aidenn0 15y ago

I'm still a bit astonished that they didn't implement a deep-sleep in the roadster, but it's good to see they will do it for the Model S.

revelation 15y ago

What is wrong with you people? You are really trying to kill off cars because you got a horse carriage at home. The horse can when coupled reproduce itself, all it takes is some food and water to keep going, its unlikely to break down, you can be flexible by changing from a one-seater to carrying raw material in the blink of an eye. Obviously, the horse is vastly superior to its new "car" competitor. Only a moron would invest in further developing the car, given that it was irrefutably shown to be inferior. -- On a more serious note, I really can't believe this. This is supposed to be a technologically informed crowd, but you are instead acting as if we've got an infinite amount of oil "somewhere down there" and that it's unacceptable to deviate from the three ton monster SUVs that roam the streets in the USA.

mansolo 15y ago
I feel you on this one, but building an industry on misinformation is not the way. Another thought: maybe we need to stop being so obsessed and utterly dependent on cars in general. Live locally, support your community, become more self-reliant, leverage personal technogy.
- gnaffle 15y ago
  I can hardly see that Tesla has provided any misinformation. They have apparently told owners that it is important to keep the batteries charged. Which owners will in the typical usage scenario. Maybe a big, red warning sticker on the door would make people happy?
- Sanddancer 15y ago
  From everything I've seen, Tesla's been pretty up front as far as what the battery needs, and what sorts of behaviors to expect. As to your other thought, some of us do not want to ghettoize ourselves. Some of us have friends in areas that are, unfortunately, difficult to reach via public transportation. Living locally would mean disconnecting from a great number of people that I care about quite deeply.
deleted 15y ago
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wtvanhest 15y ago

What happens if you leave a gasoline car for 6 months without driving it? That is the comparison I would like to see.

ghaff 15y ago
Typically? You'll probably have to jumpstart it. If it is sitting outside you could end up with the parking brake, in particular, stuck. It's not good practice to just walk away from a car for this long (should disconnect battery, put it up on blocks, etc.) but nothing terrible is likely to happen--especially if it's protected from the elements. The running down of batteries in an electric car to the point where they're damaged is definitely a corner case. It's not one that's out of the realm of possibility. (Someone goes to winter house for a few months, leaves car in garage, and the charger isn't hooked up properly or something.) It sounds like the current generation vehicles make it even more of a corner case although I have to wonder what the failure modes of the various protection systems are.
nwmcsween 15y ago
Not 6 months but about a year: * Fuel starts to turn into a syrup from evaporation requiring you to drain the tank. (This is a big issue on 2-stroke engines, you need to do a lot more work) * Oil should be replaced due to acidic oil eating away sediment from crank case. * Depending on time of year coolant should be flushed (depends on what mix is already in). * Battery will be dead. * Brake fluid might need to be changed as well. Half of these you can ignore but it will cause wear and isn't good thing.
jellicle 15y ago
If you disconnect one of your car battery terminals, it will be perfectly fine for six months. Reconnect the terminal and drive away. It's not necessary to do anything else. The main danger is things like squirrels moving into your engine block, if it's outside.
- wtvanhest 15y ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted. Seems reasonable to me. And the animal threat is real.

blhack 15y ago

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let it go flat. I'm sure some of the 5 owners who have had this happened knew that the car would go dead, but I'm sure that all of them figured that that just meant that they would have to charge it. Tesla: here is how to fix this, and I'm asking that you do this on behalf of all electronic vehicle manufacturers (to keep people from being scared off the things by blogs like this). Release a statement that follows the standard 3-step press release of oops: --- 1) "Own it". -- We fucked up here. This was our bad. We were stupid to believe that the general public would understand that letting the battery on their car go dead would cost them $40,000. This was incredibly stupid of us, and is 100% our fault. We take responsibility for this. 2) "How we're fixing it" -- The 5 people who have had this happen have all been contacted by Tesla motors. We're shipping a tech and a battery to all of them, and all of their cars will be back on the road by next week. 3) "Why this won't happen again" -- From now on, we're including a physical battery disconnect. A device will attach to the battery terminals that is normally off, and requires that the battery be at 5%[1] charge to close. If the battery drops below this, it physically disconnects the battery from the rest of the system, and doesn't allow for any parasitic electronics to drain it further. [1]: 5% is a made up number. --- Of course this won't happen, but a PR-spectator can dream. Tesla: you bungled this one. Badly. You're hurting the entire EV industry. Suck it up and admit you were wrong.

davedx 15y ago
The problem is, I think, that a battery will discharge even if it's physically disconnected. I do wonder why the batteries become 'bricked', though. All I've heard so far is just that 'they do', not why.
- gvb 15y ago
  "sounds" answered that previously http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3619112 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3619112 He referenced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrochemistry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrochem... "The overall reaction has its limits. Overdischarge supersaturates lithium cobalt oxide, leading to the production of lithium oxide, possibly by the following irreversible reaction:"

sr3d 15y ago

This is the weakest "anti-rumor" corporate response ever. After all that lengthy passive-aggressive "We're great, but you need to charge your battery", there's not a single statement about what would happen if the battery runs out, which is precisely what the original article is about. Tesla, stop beating around the bush like a politician, grow up and answer the million-dollar question like a man: What will happen once the car's battery is completely depleted? (life-line hint: it will get bricked)

mikeash 15y ago

Here's something I'm still unclear on: how strongly were owners warned about this beforehand? If Tesla cars come with a bright red warning on the driver's side window saying IF YOU DO NOT KEEP THIS CAR CHARGED THEN YOU RUN THE RISK OF REPAIRS COSTING UP TO $40,000 then I'd say Tesla is completely in the right here. If they didn't mention this anywhere and it's just something owners discover because they use it in a way that Tesla didn't think they should, then Tesla is completely in the wrong. If they did something in between, then it's in between. I may have missed it, but so far I haven't seen this explained.

morrow 15y ago
These (apparent) e-mails between an owner with the dead battery issue and Tesla seem to indicate that there is a a 'built-in notification system' for this, but it wasn't added for the first 500 cars : http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1 http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1
- mikeash 15y ago
  A problem like this really needs advance warning, not just a notification when the problem is about to develop, since the owner may not be in a position to get the car plugged in if they don't know it could occur beforehand.
  - Groxx 15y ago
    Which is why there are warnings in the manuals. Which puts it on par with changing the oil in a regular car, if less culturally-obvious. Reading a manual for something you spent $100k on seems a reasonable prerequisite, especially if you have any interest in keeping it running.

deleted 15y ago

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moomin 15y ago

TL;DR; A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable. We'd like to confirm the rumour. Seriously, I find it breathtaking, for all the reasons people have already given. It's a case study in saying "yes" while giving the impression of saying "no".

JS_startup 15y ago

What a terrible release. Is it still a rumor if the company who makes the product just confirmed that it's true? What happens when the battery runs all the way out? Why does it happen? What's being done to resolve it? PR mastery indeed..

abruzzi 15y ago

This is a textbook example of a non-denial denial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial

Torrents 15y ago

I registered at Tesla motors website so I could comment, but it says to login to comment, even when I'm logged in. When I click 'login' it says I'm already logged in. I would like to ask if it's true or not that any batteries have become inoperable due to being drained completely. Also If that does occur, what is the cost of replacement, and is it at all covered by warranty. It doesn't seem like that answer is forthcoming...

maxerickson 15y ago
It seems pretty clear to me that they do not plan on offering warranties against batteries sitting unplugged for long periods of time.

solsenNet 15y ago

quote "spreading a rumor" turns out in this case the rumor is true... well the first automobiles needed to be started with a crank on the front grill. sometimes the crank would catch and whip around an break the user's arm. its a neat thing that even in this day and age, people aren't completely shielded from being on the cutting edge. the 2020 Teslas are going to be amazing.

mmuro 15y ago

Even though this response doesn't address everything that was brought up by the original post, I still find this whole thing fascinating.

functionform 15y ago

tl;dr don't take your tesla camping, or it will 'discharge' coughbrickcough

jellicle 15y ago

Tesla, what's the cost of bundling a solar trickle charger in with your vehicle? Either build it into the roof (next generation, obviously) or just buy one that sits on the dashboard and throw it in with purchase. "Please to be using this when leaving vehicle at airport. Thank you much, Tesla." Maybe there's some reason this won't work, but... you need to work with your customers' expectations. Some of them are going to leave the vehicle unplugged for a while, and they're going to be pissed if the vehicle battery is destroyed.

jws 15y ago
30 watt drain. You will need 720 watt hours per day which will be around a square meter of solar cells. Won't work in the parking garage, snow, or Seattle. Just don't leave your tesla at the airport of 12 weeks. That's expensive all by itself.
- krallja 15y ago
  Do you need the full 30W to keep the battery alive, or is that for the whole electrical system on standby?
  - jws 15y ago
    I suspect it is dominated by self discharge. By that is just guessing at the load.

deleted 15y ago

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vollmond 15y ago

Even if it is in the owner's manual - and even if it is prominent in the manual - how many of you have ever actually read the manual when you get a new car? I know I have only ever looked when I actively needed something: the meaning of a warning light, how to operate the disc changer, something like that. It is entirely conceivable for someone to own a relatively new car for years without needed to look in there. edit: and yes, I realize it would probably make sense to check it out when buying a type of car that is relatively new, but that doesn't mean even a significant minority of new owners will.

aero142 15y ago

Why is this thread so filled with hate? This all sounds very reasonable to me. They clearly acknowledge that the battery must be maintained properly and they seem to be doing to the right things to minimize the risk. They then show very clearly that the total amount of maintenance is less than that of a gasoline vehicle, w/ oil and scheduled maintenance. There are a bunch of things like breaking your timing belt that will break a gasoline engine. This all sounds very reasonable to me. Why is everyone freaking out?

InclinedPlane 15y ago
Tesla is a corporation, they make money by selling things. Sometimes those things have limitations or imperfections. By the rules of anti-capitalist internet logic that makes Tesla an evil Robber Barron trying to scam people.
snowwrestler 15y ago
A surprising number of people, even within the technology field, don't like change that disrupts their personal habits. Hence the constant low-intensity warfare over the various Linux distros and interfaces. In this case a lot of folks are getting emotionally involved because this story serves as proof that electric cars can't be maintained with the exact same habits that an ICE car is maintained. Habits are a personal things, and can be difficult to change. A lot of people will fight to preserve them rather than adapt them.

stitchy 15y ago

The comments here seem to fall into two unrelated categories: "Tesla isn't telling customers the whole story" and "What did people expect to happen when they left their car unplugged for months?" Both are valid points. Why are you arguing? The points don't seem mutually exclusive to me. Tesla has a lot going for it. They make innovative cars, and I would love to own one. That doesn't make the company's PR responses any less defensive and cagey. The response for this particular issue is a big turn off for me. I would definitely prefer that they didn't contradict themselves within the first three paragraphs. I get it. Owners of Tesla cars need to charge their cars or they will be out $40,000. That makes sense to me. Batteries don't last forever. My Mother however doesn't care how the car works. She just wants it to work. She'll do the maintenance that you ask her to do, but she's not going to know why. So, she won't know why she can't leave the car at the airport for a month. That's why it's important for Tesla to say, "yes this is an important issue that is part of maintaining your car." Not, "A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable." If my Mother read that last sentence, she might say to herself, "oh, I guess that blogger was just lying," and move on without reading the whole article, now assuming that it's not possible to "brick" her car. I also lay some blame at Michael Degusta's feet. I don't think that it was appropriate for him to title his article "'It’s A Brick' – Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem." I don't see this as a design problem. It works. The potential for bricking your car is just something you'll have to watch out for, just like not changing your oil is something you need to watch out for. I think that Tesla was just reacting against the accusation that they had a design flaw. As long as they make sure that all of their customers know of the issue, it's not a design flaw. At that point it's maintenance. That's where I think that Tesla failed today. They skimped on their responsibility of informing the customer of important facts, so that they could come out smelling like roses. P.S. Incidentally, if I were to take a trip to my mountain home in Italy for half a year, roughly how much would I expect to pay in electricity to keep my Tesla vehicle charged? Does it draw a constant amount of power for the entire time that I'm away?

jrockway 15y ago
If you can afford a $100,000 car, you are not going to leave it parked at the airport for a month. Tesla does not make cars for people that need a utility vehicle, they make toys for rich people. Some day, this technology will be mass market and the batteries will be more forgiving. Today is not that day.

TwoBit 15y ago

tl;dr - A Tesla car can in fact be bricked. The blogger should write a follow-up article: "Tesla admits that cars can be bricked. They are just a little harder to brick than assumed."

droithomme 15y ago

Wow. Great example of PR spin. It totally confirms the bricking claims by refusing to outright deny them. Instead it just repeats that you are supposed to recharge it and not let the batteries deplete, which is something everyone already acknowledges is true and is not a point of contention. There is also a jab at a "single blogger" bringing the issue up, as if he is some rogue on a vendetta or looking for attention. But then not denying his claims makes this look like an insidious corporate attack on a journalist who actually brought to the public's attention a serious flaw with a product. Very similar to how GM's attacks on Ralph Nader back in the 1970s started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Industry_response http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Industry_re...

jrockway 15y ago

I read this as, "yup, you'll brick your car if you don't keep it plugged in." On the other hand, I manage to keep my cell phone charged at all times, so I can imagine that I'd be able to keep my car charged at all times. But I ride a bike, so this doesn't really affect me.

jfasi 15y ago

This is a good release, however there is a better way to present it. By now, gasoline powered cars have been around for a hundred years. Everyone knows they are complex machines with lots of movings parts, and that they require regular maintenance to keep in working shape. What Tesla is putting forward here is the fact that the same principle applies to their electric cars: they need their own kind of TLC to be kept in good shape. However, there is another point Tesla fails to get across. Over those hundred or so years, not only has the need to care of a gas-powered car entered into the public psyche, but also how that care must be carried out. Everyone knows that cars need oil changes and exhaust checks and all that. It's obvious by now. However, that sort of awareness doesn't exist when it comes to electric cars. Saying they need care is great, but Tesla is missing an opportunity to develop the same sort of intuitive public awareness with regard to their vehicles. It's not just 'these cars need care,' it's 'these cars need care, and its of a kind you don't expect, that's OK because you haven't need raised on these vehicles since you were young.' This way, the message would move from being an ever-so-slightly condescending implication that you forgot that electric cars need electricity, and refocuses on the need to augment the way in which people think about maintaining their vehicles.

cenuij 15y ago

Is it true to say that other battery only electric cars don't have the same potential, sorry, to become a brick? If so, this PR response is pure fluff.

wmf 15y ago
Other EVs have the same warnings in their manuals.

ssmoot 15y ago

I can't remember ever saying this before, and it's not even really plausible considering how relatively small HN is, but some of the comments here feel like they're directly from the mouth of Tesla. I mean seriously. Cost doesn't matter? Time doesn't matter? Equating going on vacation without your car to never changing your oil? Just because someone says it's neglect, or even has a contract that defines it that way, doesn't mean it's reasonable or even anywhere near the realm of common sense. That's just lawyer speak that is.

phil 15y ago

This sounds a lot like breaking a timing belt on an engine with an interference design. (When that happens the cylinders plow into the valves and there's a lot of carnage). On my car that's a $6-7000 fix if it happens. I bet if there were only 2,500 of those engines in the world it would be a $40k fix, but economies of scale have made it cheaper.

gwern 15y ago

> The earliest Roadsters will take over two months to discharge if parked at a 50 percent charge without being plugged in. What exactly are the conditions for this statement to be true? My laptop battery has lost some of its capacity over the past 2 years - how much capacity do Roadsters lose over time? If I had bought one of the first 100 or whatever, what would that discharge figure be now?

xl-brain 15y ago

So, I guess they are saying you can brick a Tesla roadster. Just to add to the PR observations, I like how they have a few positive comments, but it is actually impossible to make comments on the post.

grellas 15y ago

Deposition line of questioning suggested after reading this piece: Q. Is it true that the battery has catastrophic failure when it drains to zero and is left in that state for a sustained period? A. The company has built in countless safeguards to ensure that the battery never drains to zero. Q. That is not what I asked. Please answer the question. A. It is an unfounded rumor that many owners have incurred such a catastrophic failure and only an irrational fear would permit anyone to believe that. Q. I didn't ask about many owners, only whether it is possible to incur a catastrophic failure as described. Please answer the question. A. Our documentation clearly tells owners that it is vital to keep their car plugged in and we give them ever-escalating warnings to ensure that no rational person could ever let the car get close to that state. Q. I didn't ask about the likelihood of this happening, only whether it can happen. Please answer the question. A. We value our customers more than you can imagine and it is slanderous to suggest that we would subject them to risks that can be avoided. Q. Again, not what I asked, please answer the question. A. Every car has risks of catastrophic failure if it is badly misused. Q. Does this mean the Tesla does too with its engine? A. We will not dignify a mere rumor with an answer to that question. Q. And is it true that it costs $40K to replace the battery? A. I object to that as irrelevant. Q. And that it is not covered under warranty? A. Ditto - irrelevant. Q. And constitutes an uninsurable risk? A. We really are off track here. I will not answer. Q. So you do not regard it as worthy of disclosure to your buyers that, should their battery drain to zero for any sustained period, the only remedy is to replace it at their own expense at a $40K cost. A. That disclosure would not fit with our marketing plans. Plus we say something of the sort at page 487 of our owner's manual. Q.Well I guess this was all pretty pointless. A. Of course, nothing wrong here. Ignore the man behind the curtain. What a stupid thing to ask about anyway. The revolution is apace and you shouldn't bother me with little details.

eduardordm 15y ago
Answer to your first question: No. The battery is fine, the stupidity in understanding that Li-ion batteries must never be fully discharged is the only catastrophic failure here. Why can't I down vote your post? :( PS: Don't buy any RC model (or diesel engines!), they all suffer from the same "catastrophic failure".

zephjc 15y ago

Devices are not pets or children. They should not die through owner inaction.

outworlder 15y ago

Assuming Tesla PR is correct, then: 1- All modern battery packs, including laptops, have internal management circuitry that, among other things (like controlling charge so that they will not explode) not allow the damn thing to deplete. When 0% charge is reported the battery still has plenty of juice left. 2- With the given parasitic drain, the battery will last for at least a month left at 0% charge 3- If you leave you car at the airport, you kinda expect to be able to get back, so you won't leave the car at 0% when you depart. And even at 0%, you have a month to plug it in So, barring a zombie apocalypse, what is the expected use-case that actual owners would encounter, to be able to destroy the batteries? It is certainly not normal usage.

eldude 15y ago

The comparison of a fully discharged battery to the negligence of running a car with no or bad oil is disingenuous and likely manipulative. One is a passive issue of forgetting or not knowing a car requires charging when _not operating_, the other is an active negligence of operating a car that is unfit to run. I can neglect a car in storage for decades and getting it started will not require more than the cost of the car. At best it will require a tune-up and a full tank of gas.

pbreit 15y ago

The original blogger and all the naysayers were completely insane to think this was some sort of design oversight and that the Model S would not include significant improvements.

mathattack 15y ago

Seems like a little upselling going on in the defense. That is mastery.

bambax 15y ago

Isn't the whole point of "electric cars" to save energy? Here we learn that they need juice constantly to run "vital systems" and therefore consume energy at all times, even when not running. The owner cannot choose to let his car unplugged because then it'll break down completely and need to be repaired at a cost of 40% of the original price. This is not progress.

jaggs 15y ago

Two words: Nissan Leaf. Quote - "Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary tells Motoramic that the all-electric Nissan Leaf "will never discharge completely, thanks to an advanced battery management system designed to protect the battery from damage." Thanks to a combination of different management and battery cells custom-designed for the car, Nissan has sold 22,000 Leafs and never suffered a similar failure. Tesla's acolytes may find no fault in the charges, but other automakers know there's little margin in blaming customers for not asking the right questions."