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I'm going to do a very poor attempt at explaining my feelings over this. For a long time I've idolized Teddy Roosevelt. Parts of his story just speak to me: *

I'm going to do a very poor attempt at explaining my feelings over this. For a long time I've idolized Teddy Roosevelt. Parts of his story just speak to me: * He was sickly but just worked very hard to compensate and overcome it to live an outdoors-centric life. I suffer from some undiagnosable(word?) arthritis, I work hard to still do my favorite activities (backpacking, hunting and fishing). * He was extremely well learned, thoughtful, and articulate. He kept a detailed journal. I admire those traits and try to emulate them. I pursued a PhD, I keep a journal, I frequently write to relatives and friends. I try to be thoughtful and articulate. * He was a legendary hunter (as I mentioned I love hunting), and conservationist. He is partly responsible for the National Parks, which I enjoy every free day (I live near Yellowstone and routinely pass under his arch). * He was empathetic and progressive for his time [0], despite his unshaking nationalism. He didn't seem to fall for toxic tropes of conservatism (although those political terms don't translate to today, Teddy is universally celebrated by the right). I believe strongly in what I consider to be core unshaking tenets of American national identity, but I also try hard to be empathetic and make sure no one is left behind. I don't believe the answer is exclusion of outgroups, which I think is a common conservative trope today. I have a lot of respect for Teddy (with some important caveats) [1]. * He held himself, and those in government to a higher standard [2]. He believed he was a public servant, and fought tirelessly against corruption. There is nothing that makes me angrier than corruption and entitlement in political office today. I also learned, a couple years ago, he probably would have despised me, had our paths crossed. I'm mostly Italian-American, who he openly viewed as mostly criminals [3], and even went so far as to applaud a lynching of Italian Americans in New Orleans [4]. I think it's important that I learned this. I'm glad it wasn't erased or ignored or left out of the record. I learned a few things from it. I learned (well, I already knew, but it was reinforced) that no one is perfect. No one. And that perfection is the enemy of self-improvement, it is the enemy of progress, and it is the enemy of good. There's no part of me that I'm aware of that's worse for having held TR in such high esteem and tried to emulate the great things I found about him. In fact, his example has improved my life in a variety of ways, particularly my mental health and fortitude, seeing him as an example. Sure, it made me sad to learn that fact about him, but in terms of material affect? It had no change. Words, thoughts, opinions, ideas, are necessarily flawed and incomplete as a direct result of the human condition. Pretending they are not creates two things: 1) An impossible standard 2) A false sense of security and satisfaction I'm better at some things than TR. I don't have Italian Americans (or any minority group for that matter, my understanding was that he had similar feelings about natives). That alone is a major victory. By not having to draw myself against perfect examples, I can foster some feeling of accomplishment, but I can also learn that my idols were flawed and that even if I am flawed in many ways, I can hopefully still do some good. That's an important motivator. A perfect example is one I will never live up to, and in that case, why even try? [0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/theodore-roosevelt-mississippi-postmaster/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/theodore-roosevelt-mississ... [1] https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/08/theodore-roosevelt-and-the-case-for-a-popular-constitution/ https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/08/theodore-roosevel... [2] https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2020/09/14/president-theodore-roosevelt-on-the-importance-of-fighting-corruption/ https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2020/09/14/president-th... [3] https://theamericanmag.com/a-rather-good-thing/ https://theamericanmag.com/a-rather-good-thing/ [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings

snapcaster 3y ago
Great comment, thanks for taking the time to write that out. I think for a lot of people they look to books or other things to tell them what to think. Other people (like you it sounds like) look to books to share a story or a perspective or an idea and that engaging with the idea doesn't imply endorsing it. Also, everyone wants to think that they would be the brave resistance fighter when in fact most of us don't "choose" sides in any meaningful sense and just go along with the status quo. I think seeing these really smart and progressive (for their time) people and what their blind spots were despite their brilliance can help me look inwards and see where I might be a "man of my time" and missing something later generations will judge me for
causi 3y ago
It's important to judge people in context. Just as you wouldn't think as harshly of a thief who grew up in a poor, violent household, you shouldn't think as harshly of the ignorance of a historical figure as you would of a person of today who should know better. I suspect there are many things about the people of today which the people of a century hence will regard as utterly depraved.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  We're making the third choice, which is to edit the words of the people we worship in order to maintain that worship, to keep them heroic. Keeping people from idolizing racists by going back and making them not racist (so we can continue to worship the same things without guilt.) Instead we should just be adult, and recognize that being racist isn't an entire person, it's a component of a person that may have other components that are deeply admirable. The refusal to admit that causes difficulties for people whose almost entire academic life consisted of the study of the works of racists. Deleting their racism from history is a comfortable solution for people still living off the wealth that their racist ancestors accumulated.
- watwut 3y ago
  Fairly often, people who lived in exactly the same time judged their contemporaries too by the exact same standards you complain about. There is this knee jerk assumption out of nowhere about pretty much any bad act by major popular figure being chalked up to their naivite or just them being product of times with zero own thinking agency. Sometimes it is the case, but also plenty of times these were conscious decisions or strongly criticized by contemporaries.

snapcaster 3y ago

Great comment, thanks for taking the time to write that out. I think for a lot of people they look to books or other things to tell them what to think. Other people (like you it sounds like) look to books to share a story or a perspective or an idea and that engaging with the idea doesn't imply endorsing it. Also, everyone wants to think that they would be the brave resistance fighter when in fact most of us don't "choose" sides in any meaningful sense and just go along with the status quo. I think seeing these really smart and progressive (for their time) people and what their blind spots were despite their brilliance can help me look inwards and see where I might be a "man of my time" and missing something later generations will judge me for

causi 3y ago

It's important to judge people in context. Just as you wouldn't think as harshly of a thief who grew up in a poor, violent household, you shouldn't think as harshly of the ignorance of a historical figure as you would of a person of today who should know better. I suspect there are many things about the people of today which the people of a century hence will regard as utterly depraved.

pessimizer 3y ago
We're making the third choice, which is to edit the words of the people we worship in order to maintain that worship, to keep them heroic. Keeping people from idolizing racists by going back and making them not racist (so we can continue to worship the same things without guilt.) Instead we should just be adult, and recognize that being racist isn't an entire person, it's a component of a person that may have other components that are deeply admirable. The refusal to admit that causes difficulties for people whose almost entire academic life consisted of the study of the works of racists. Deleting their racism from history is a comfortable solution for people still living off the wealth that their racist ancestors accumulated.
watwut 3y ago
Fairly often, people who lived in exactly the same time judged their contemporaries too by the exact same standards you complain about. There is this knee jerk assumption out of nowhere about pretty much any bad act by major popular figure being chalked up to their naivite or just them being product of times with zero own thinking agency. Sometimes it is the case, but also plenty of times these were conscious decisions or strongly criticized by contemporaries.