9 ms·

I'm finding their examples hilarious, especially considering one of them is Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Oompa Loompas were orig

I'm finding their examples hilarious, especially considering one of them is Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Oompa Loompas were originally African pygmies.

tivert 3y ago
> I'm finding their examples hilarious, especially considering one of them is Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Oompa Loompas were originally African pygmies. IIRC, that was done by the original author himself. That's far different than an anonymous committee quietly revising past works to conform to the current political line. I mean that's such a blatant parallel to a famous work of dystopian fiction that they should know better not to do it. Though, I honestly look forward to a revised version of that famous work, revised to conform to modern sensitivities. IIRC, there's some out-of-fashion racial descriptions and the whole disapproving take on doctoring older works has to go.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  I think that it's anti-black to de-racist-ify the past. Take it or leave it, but don't gaslight black people over the experience that they've had for the last century or four in relation to Europeans. As far as I can tell, a major component of woke bowdlerization of the past seems to be finding depictions of black people and either eliminating them or making them conform to the idealistic stereotypes of modern white liberals. That's stacking stereotypes on stereotypes, and the truth of the black experience gets buried even deeper. The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    I read an article last week where a DEI expert was angry about the new release of The Little Mermaid because it wasn't nearly racist enough; that 18th-century Caribbean people were friends and kind to each other no matter what their race or sex; it was unconscionable that history should be rewritten to leave out the allegedly horrible experiences being had by BIPOC in that place and time.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      That's a symptom of trying to rewrite white stories and stick black people into them. It's the same process as trying to rewrite male stories with female protagonists. It's the creation of fictional pasts. If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about? They should have just tried harder.
      - slg 3y ago
        And the reason we get these stories in this way is not because of anything related to wokeism, progressivism, DEI, or whatever buzzword you wanted use. It is because of risk averse capitalists. Disney knows a Black Little Mermaid is a safer investment than an original story with a Black protagonist so that is the version we get.
        themaninthedark 3y ago
        That is rather racist isn't it?(Not your comment but the attitude held by the corporation)
        slg 3y ago
        No, it is cynical, ignorant, and lazy, but I don't think it qualifies as racist. I would compare it to those people who like to claim they "don't see race". It isn't actually racist because it isn't discriminatory or putting one race above another. It is just ignoring something that often can't be ignored.
      - watwut 3y ago
        The original story was a fiction too and creates fictional past too. That exact same story with only males in it ... was a fiction. Those males never existed and never did any of those things. Variant of the same fictional story with a woman or a black person is ... exactly as fictional as original. The real world back then contained both men and women. None of them done the mythical things stories are about. Modern reimagining of The Three Musketeers make Musketeers sound more honorable and noble then actual text. Some comedies make them sound incapable, clumsy and funny. Dumas politics was not pro-ancient regime and he actually makes it clear. Making that into super honorable flawless dudes is as much "changing past fiction" as if you slapped gender or race or made them eskimos. But somehow that is fine. > If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about? In general, they complain about how they are or were treated back in real world. They also complain about being depicted in fiction as dumb simpletons without agency and then people on discussion forums claiming that those dumb simpletons depictions somehow constitute historical reality.
  - BenisMaximus 3y ago
    It's like going through life with autism and being called "neurodiverse" as if you haven't lived with an active disability your whole life, you're just a little different from everyone else. Back in the early 2000s I saw someone refer to a wheelchair-bound person as "handicapable". The disabled fellow ran over his foot lol. Point being I think it's best not to minimize people's suffering. Acknowledge it, respect it, and try to move forward together.
    - Aloha 3y ago
      I dont think of Autism (as someone who has it) as a disability - even though it does make me different (normal people and their societal norms are often baffling to me, but I still follow those norms to the extent I am able). I don't want others to think of me as disabled either (though a little understanding might be nice when I fail to mask well enough). Maybe the problem is how we treat the disabled, not the words we use to talk about disability?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Changing characters and their depictions is a thing that can be argued about, but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023. In general, it's (IMHO) not needed to have centuries old books full of stereotypes in modern curricula. There are so many works that have been published in the last decades that provide far better diversity of all kinds than even a "de-racisted" historic book can. Modern authors, modern artists, modern composers and other artists deserve their shine in the spotlight as well - it's ridiculous how much of curricula is spent on stuff that happened or got created hundreds to thousands of years ago. We have to refocus education on modern events if we want a modern society. And if you want something filled with racial or other stereotypes in curricula, ffs print it with commentary like we do with Hitler's "Mein Kampf" here in Germany. That is, coincidentally, the only way one is allowed to do a reprint in Germany due to copyright and anti-Nazi symbolism laws.
    - xg15 3y ago
      > but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023. How can a word be a bomb? And I'm still at a loss how in a supposedly post-enlightenment world, a single word can be so evil that you have to resort to code to refer to it, no matter in which context or even when you're quoting. Yes, you shouldn't call people that way - and if you do, that is a clear sign of a racist mindset. But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        > But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking. Nonetheless, the continued reproduction of that word makes it "acceptable" to be used, and every time affected persons have to read that, it's bad for them.
  - civilitty 3y ago
    > The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype. That’s nothing new sadly, especially in academia. It used to be considered proper literary form to “translate” how people actually spoke to “proper English” and you can imagine the demographic of the people doing the “translating.” See for example Barracoon: The Story of the Last "Black Cargo" [1] about one of the last living former slaves in the US. It was published a few years ago nearly a century after it was written because the author refused to white wash the subject’s language and couldn’t get it published in her life time. Hell that criticism could easily be leveled at some of the most popular western canon like To Kill a Mockingbird and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracoon:_The_Story_of_the_Last_%22Black_Cargo%22 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracoon:_The_Story_of_the_...
    - quacked 3y ago
      Barracoon is the greatest work of anti-slavery literature I've ever read. It wouldn't have been as effective if they'd removed his dialect. "Sometimes I think I die in my sleep when I dream bout my mama." I had tears in my eyes.
- saalweachter 3y ago
  Except it's never a faceless authoritarian committee in practice. It's one of two things: The copyright holders are publishing new editions edited to modern sensibilities to maximize their profits by selling to a new audience. The works are in the public domain, in which case anyone can edit up a new edition however they like, for fun or profit. What's the alternative? We take away the right of copyright holders to publish new editions of their IP? We disallow people to edit works in the public domain?
  - domador 3y ago
    An alternative: allow copyright holders to publish new editions but only if they 1) clearly label them as new, edited versions that are not the original and 2) make the unedited originals fully and completely available upon request, for a (truly) reasonable fee to anyone who requests access to them for whatever reason. If these conditions aren't met within a reasonable timeframe, then (by law) the original version would automatically become fully (or partially) public domain. ("Partial" public domain would mean than anyone could make or distribute copies of the original version. The copyright holders would temporarily retain the exclusive right to make edited versions, until the work fully becomes public domain when the standard copyright term lapses. At that point anyone could make and distribute the original version or their own, edited versions.)
    - saalweachter 3y ago
      So should Bill Nye be required to keep publishing the original version of his book "Undeniable"? [Between the publication of the hardcover and softcover editions, he changed his views on GMO foods, and updated the relevant chapter.]
      - Pet_Ant 3y ago
        Perhaps as an on-demand title. Add a foreword if he'd like, but yeah.
      - tivert 3y ago
        > So should Bill Nye be required to keep publishing the original version of his book "Undeniable"? [Between the publication of the hardcover and softcover editions, he changed his views on GMO foods, and updated the relevant chapter.] Ideally, yes, but at a minimum he should provide a list of changes and their rationale(s) in the newer editions.
technothrasher 3y ago
Roald Dahl's stories are so full of inappropriate conflict resolution and outgrouping of others that it honestly feels silly to change a few words and call it fixed. I loved Dahl's stories as a kid specifically because it was obvious they were 'naughty' and like a lot of fiction they allowed me to explore darker feelings and desires without actually living them out in real life. However, that said, I don't particularly mind people updating stories to modern sensibilities as long is it is made obvious that it isn't the original edition, and those original editions are archived somewhere.
morkalork 3y ago
Editors have been pulling tricks forever. Taking Roald Dahl as an example, he published stories from his time as a pilot in WWII and one of them being autobiographical and about the time he crashed his plane. The editors didn't think that was exciting enough for their magazine so they changed it to imply he was shot down. Which is not what happened at all!

I'm finding their examples hilarious, especially considering one of them is Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Oompa Loompas were originally African pygmies.

tivert 3y ago

> I'm finding their examples hilarious, especially considering one of them is Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Oompa Loompas were originally African pygmies. IIRC, that was done by the original author himself. That's far different than an anonymous committee quietly revising past works to conform to the current political line. I mean that's such a blatant parallel to a famous work of dystopian fiction that they should know better not to do it. Though, I honestly look forward to a revised version of that famous work, revised to conform to modern sensitivities. IIRC, there's some out-of-fashion racial descriptions and the whole disapproving take on doctoring older works has to go.

pessimizer 3y ago
I think that it's anti-black to de-racist-ify the past. Take it or leave it, but don't gaslight black people over the experience that they've had for the last century or four in relation to Europeans. As far as I can tell, a major component of woke bowdlerization of the past seems to be finding depictions of black people and either eliminating them or making them conform to the idealistic stereotypes of modern white liberals. That's stacking stereotypes on stereotypes, and the truth of the black experience gets buried even deeper. The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  I read an article last week where a DEI expert was angry about the new release of The Little Mermaid because it wasn't nearly racist enough; that 18th-century Caribbean people were friends and kind to each other no matter what their race or sex; it was unconscionable that history should be rewritten to leave out the allegedly horrible experiences being had by BIPOC in that place and time.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    That's a symptom of trying to rewrite white stories and stick black people into them. It's the same process as trying to rewrite male stories with female protagonists. It's the creation of fictional pasts. If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about? They should have just tried harder.
    - slg 3y ago
      And the reason we get these stories in this way is not because of anything related to wokeism, progressivism, DEI, or whatever buzzword you wanted use. It is because of risk averse capitalists. Disney knows a Black Little Mermaid is a safer investment than an original story with a Black protagonist so that is the version we get.
      - themaninthedark 3y ago
        That is rather racist isn't it?(Not your comment but the attitude held by the corporation)
        slg 3y ago
        No, it is cynical, ignorant, and lazy, but I don't think it qualifies as racist. I would compare it to those people who like to claim they "don't see race". It isn't actually racist because it isn't discriminatory or putting one race above another. It is just ignoring something that often can't be ignored.
    - watwut 3y ago
      The original story was a fiction too and creates fictional past too. That exact same story with only males in it ... was a fiction. Those males never existed and never did any of those things. Variant of the same fictional story with a woman or a black person is ... exactly as fictional as original. The real world back then contained both men and women. None of them done the mythical things stories are about. Modern reimagining of The Three Musketeers make Musketeers sound more honorable and noble then actual text. Some comedies make them sound incapable, clumsy and funny. Dumas politics was not pro-ancient regime and he actually makes it clear. Making that into super honorable flawless dudes is as much "changing past fiction" as if you slapped gender or race or made them eskimos. But somehow that is fine. > If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about? In general, they complain about how they are or were treated back in real world. They also complain about being depicted in fiction as dumb simpletons without agency and then people on discussion forums claiming that those dumb simpletons depictions somehow constitute historical reality.
- BenisMaximus 3y ago
  It's like going through life with autism and being called "neurodiverse" as if you haven't lived with an active disability your whole life, you're just a little different from everyone else. Back in the early 2000s I saw someone refer to a wheelchair-bound person as "handicapable". The disabled fellow ran over his foot lol. Point being I think it's best not to minimize people's suffering. Acknowledge it, respect it, and try to move forward together.
  - Aloha 3y ago
    I dont think of Autism (as someone who has it) as a disability - even though it does make me different (normal people and their societal norms are often baffling to me, but I still follow those norms to the extent I am able). I don't want others to think of me as disabled either (though a little understanding might be nice when I fail to mask well enough). Maybe the problem is how we treat the disabled, not the words we use to talk about disability?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Changing characters and their depictions is a thing that can be argued about, but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023. In general, it's (IMHO) not needed to have centuries old books full of stereotypes in modern curricula. There are so many works that have been published in the last decades that provide far better diversity of all kinds than even a "de-racisted" historic book can. Modern authors, modern artists, modern composers and other artists deserve their shine in the spotlight as well - it's ridiculous how much of curricula is spent on stuff that happened or got created hundreds to thousands of years ago. We have to refocus education on modern events if we want a modern society. And if you want something filled with racial or other stereotypes in curricula, ffs print it with commentary like we do with Hitler's "Mein Kampf" here in Germany. That is, coincidentally, the only way one is allowed to do a reprint in Germany due to copyright and anti-Nazi symbolism laws.
  - xg15 3y ago
    > but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023. How can a word be a bomb? And I'm still at a loss how in a supposedly post-enlightenment world, a single word can be so evil that you have to resort to code to refer to it, no matter in which context or even when you're quoting. Yes, you shouldn't call people that way - and if you do, that is a clear sign of a racist mindset. But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking. Nonetheless, the continued reproduction of that word makes it "acceptable" to be used, and every time affected persons have to read that, it's bad for them.
- civilitty 3y ago
  > The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype. That’s nothing new sadly, especially in academia. It used to be considered proper literary form to “translate” how people actually spoke to “proper English” and you can imagine the demographic of the people doing the “translating.” See for example Barracoon: The Story of the Last "Black Cargo" [1] about one of the last living former slaves in the US. It was published a few years ago nearly a century after it was written because the author refused to white wash the subject’s language and couldn’t get it published in her life time. Hell that criticism could easily be leveled at some of the most popular western canon like To Kill a Mockingbird and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracoon:_The_Story_of_the_Last_%22Black_Cargo%22 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracoon:_The_Story_of_the_...
  - quacked 3y ago
    Barracoon is the greatest work of anti-slavery literature I've ever read. It wouldn't have been as effective if they'd removed his dialect. "Sometimes I think I die in my sleep when I dream bout my mama." I had tears in my eyes.
saalweachter 3y ago
Except it's never a faceless authoritarian committee in practice. It's one of two things: The copyright holders are publishing new editions edited to modern sensibilities to maximize their profits by selling to a new audience. The works are in the public domain, in which case anyone can edit up a new edition however they like, for fun or profit. What's the alternative? We take away the right of copyright holders to publish new editions of their IP? We disallow people to edit works in the public domain?
- domador 3y ago
  An alternative: allow copyright holders to publish new editions but only if they 1) clearly label them as new, edited versions that are not the original and 2) make the unedited originals fully and completely available upon request, for a (truly) reasonable fee to anyone who requests access to them for whatever reason. If these conditions aren't met within a reasonable timeframe, then (by law) the original version would automatically become fully (or partially) public domain. ("Partial" public domain would mean than anyone could make or distribute copies of the original version. The copyright holders would temporarily retain the exclusive right to make edited versions, until the work fully becomes public domain when the standard copyright term lapses. At that point anyone could make and distribute the original version or their own, edited versions.)
  - saalweachter 3y ago
    So should Bill Nye be required to keep publishing the original version of his book "Undeniable"? [Between the publication of the hardcover and softcover editions, he changed his views on GMO foods, and updated the relevant chapter.]
    - Pet_Ant 3y ago
      Perhaps as an on-demand title. Add a foreword if he'd like, but yeah.
    - tivert 3y ago
      > So should Bill Nye be required to keep publishing the original version of his book "Undeniable"? [Between the publication of the hardcover and softcover editions, he changed his views on GMO foods, and updated the relevant chapter.] Ideally, yes, but at a minimum he should provide a list of changes and their rationale(s) in the newer editions.

technothrasher 3y ago

Roald Dahl's stories are so full of inappropriate conflict resolution and outgrouping of others that it honestly feels silly to change a few words and call it fixed. I loved Dahl's stories as a kid specifically because it was obvious they were 'naughty' and like a lot of fiction they allowed me to explore darker feelings and desires without actually living them out in real life. However, that said, I don't particularly mind people updating stories to modern sensibilities as long is it is made obvious that it isn't the original edition, and those original editions are archived somewhere.

morkalork 3y ago

Editors have been pulling tricks forever. Taking Roald Dahl as an example, he published stories from his time as a pilot in WWII and one of them being autobiographical and about the time he crashed his plane. The editors didn't think that was exciting enough for their magazine so they changed it to imply he was shot down. Which is not what happened at all!