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I don't know how to feel about this. Honestly, I think CCS is a perfectly fine solution that was basically the de-facto standard anyways for many years (everyon

I don't know how to feel about this. Honestly, I think CCS is a perfectly fine solution that was basically the de-facto standard anyways for many years (everyone was on it except Tesla). But if swapping to NACS provides consumers and manufacturers less resistance to swapping to electric, that isn't a bad thing. As long as we have inter-operability that isn't a nightmare, it's fine.

mkozlows 3y ago
But of course it's going to provide more resistance. As you say, CCS was the obvious standard -- everyone (except Tesla) building a car was using CCS, and everyone (including Tesla) building chargers going forward was using CCS. You could buy a car with CCS and be confident you were buying the standard, well-supported thing. You could install CCS chargers in your garage, apartment complex, business parking lot, etc. and be confident that you were installing the standard, well-supported thing. Now all that's up in the air. If you were planning to install chargers at home or in your business, it's not clear what kind you should install, so you just won't. If you were on the fence about buying an EV, it's now not clear whether your EV will be compatible with future chargers (without requiring a stupid dongle adapter that you have to haul around and pop out of your trunk every time you stop to charge), and you might just put that on hold. (This is particularly egregious for Ford/GM, since their CEOs have announced that they think NACS is the path forward, and they make zero NACS cars and will not make any NACS cars until 2025. They just osborned their entire lineup, great move, real awesome strategy there.) The uncertainty caused by backtracking from the vision of CCS as universal standard is awful, and may slow the EV transition by years. (But it's great for Tesla, inasmuch as a standards-compliant non-vendor-dependent charging network helps Tesla's competitors, and so slowing down that buildout makes Tesla stronger.)
- cduzz 3y ago
  CCS1 is a DC Fast charging plug / protocol. You're not installing that at home. I have a tesla; I got a cheap charger on amazon and use the j1772 converter that came with my car to charge the car. Another friend, also with a tesla, also does home charging using a "standard" plug and a j1772 adapter. There are even "tesla to j1772" adapters. The CCS1 plug is enormous and silly. The existing DC fast charging networks tha aren't run by tesla are absurdly bad. They failed because they were setup to drive people away from EVs (seemingly) -- deeply unreliable and expensive and poorly placed. This whole "Tesla plug standard wins" thing is around DC fast charging and not L2 / AC charging, where the plug barely matters -- everyone will use a cheap passive adapter and move on with their lives (I use an adapter basically everywhere I charge and barely notice)
  - mkozlows 3y ago
    CCS is a superset of J1772, and "CCS charger" here means obviously "charger that is physically compatible with a CCS charging port, but not compatible with an NACS charging port." I'm glad the adapter life works well for you, but I submit that for a mass audience, it's not going to be acceptable. "I just use an adapter everywhere I charge" is a thing only early adopters put up with.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    That’s just not true. While some chargers are out at EA stations I’ve never had to wait in line when I went and always have been able to charge at max (relative to curve). Are they as good as Tesla? No. Should Hyundai/Kia owners be left out in the cold due to their charge port choice? No.
    - cduzz 3y ago
      Who's being left in the cold? Other than people with chademo only cars, that is? If you have a CCS1 car, you can buy an adapter and use the tesla app to charge at a supercharger. If you have an NACS car you can buy an adapter to use CCS1 chargers. Neither is great but nobody's getting cold unless they're unwilling to buy adapters. The OP was talking about "which charger should I install at my house or business?" which is silly -- install a j1772 plugged L2 charger -- everyone with NACS car has an adapter. CCS1 is a fast charging protocol / plug. If you were planning on starting a fast charging network, well, the cost and the plug and cord is 0.001% of the cost. So add a NACS and CCS1 cables to your kiosk and you're fine. EA or other places will probably still add CCS1 plugs for the next 3+ year to new installs (all 300 of them) and you get access to tesla superchargers if you buy an adapter. If you manage to drive a CCS1 for 20 years it might be a problem but it's not an issue today.
kj4ips 3y ago
The main concern for me is that this may very well allow Tesla to gatekeep the entire NA EV/EVSE market, since they still control the patents around NACS, and their pledge has carve-outs allows them to exclude pretty much every major player for one reason or another. (I am also assuming that adapters well be relatively available in the 2+ years til implementation, so the CCS2-equiped fleet isn't left out in the cold) If they were willing to release it under an OSHW license with a non-revocable patent grant, I'd be fine with it. I agree that Tesla superchargers do tend to provide a better UX than their competition, some of that is vertical synergy, but a good portion of it is the competition just not being up to snuff.

mkozlows 3y ago

But of course it's going to provide more resistance. As you say, CCS was the obvious standard -- everyone (except Tesla) building a car was using CCS, and everyone (including Tesla) building chargers going forward was using CCS. You could buy a car with CCS and be confident you were buying the standard, well-supported thing. You could install CCS chargers in your garage, apartment complex, business parking lot, etc. and be confident that you were installing the standard, well-supported thing. Now all that's up in the air. If you were planning to install chargers at home or in your business, it's not clear what kind you should install, so you just won't. If you were on the fence about buying an EV, it's now not clear whether your EV will be compatible with future chargers (without requiring a stupid dongle adapter that you have to haul around and pop out of your trunk every time you stop to charge), and you might just put that on hold. (This is particularly egregious for Ford/GM, since their CEOs have announced that they think NACS is the path forward, and they make zero NACS cars and will not make any NACS cars until 2025. They just osborned their entire lineup, great move, real awesome strategy there.) The uncertainty caused by backtracking from the vision of CCS as universal standard is awful, and may slow the EV transition by years. (But it's great for Tesla, inasmuch as a standards-compliant non-vendor-dependent charging network helps Tesla's competitors, and so slowing down that buildout makes Tesla stronger.)

cduzz 3y ago
CCS1 is a DC Fast charging plug / protocol. You're not installing that at home. I have a tesla; I got a cheap charger on amazon and use the j1772 converter that came with my car to charge the car. Another friend, also with a tesla, also does home charging using a "standard" plug and a j1772 adapter. There are even "tesla to j1772" adapters. The CCS1 plug is enormous and silly. The existing DC fast charging networks tha aren't run by tesla are absurdly bad. They failed because they were setup to drive people away from EVs (seemingly) -- deeply unreliable and expensive and poorly placed. This whole "Tesla plug standard wins" thing is around DC fast charging and not L2 / AC charging, where the plug barely matters -- everyone will use a cheap passive adapter and move on with their lives (I use an adapter basically everywhere I charge and barely notice)
- mkozlows 3y ago
  CCS is a superset of J1772, and "CCS charger" here means obviously "charger that is physically compatible with a CCS charging port, but not compatible with an NACS charging port." I'm glad the adapter life works well for you, but I submit that for a mass audience, it's not going to be acceptable. "I just use an adapter everywhere I charge" is a thing only early adopters put up with.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  That’s just not true. While some chargers are out at EA stations I’ve never had to wait in line when I went and always have been able to charge at max (relative to curve). Are they as good as Tesla? No. Should Hyundai/Kia owners be left out in the cold due to their charge port choice? No.
  - cduzz 3y ago
    Who's being left in the cold? Other than people with chademo only cars, that is? If you have a CCS1 car, you can buy an adapter and use the tesla app to charge at a supercharger. If you have an NACS car you can buy an adapter to use CCS1 chargers. Neither is great but nobody's getting cold unless they're unwilling to buy adapters. The OP was talking about "which charger should I install at my house or business?" which is silly -- install a j1772 plugged L2 charger -- everyone with NACS car has an adapter. CCS1 is a fast charging protocol / plug. If you were planning on starting a fast charging network, well, the cost and the plug and cord is 0.001% of the cost. So add a NACS and CCS1 cables to your kiosk and you're fine. EA or other places will probably still add CCS1 plugs for the next 3+ year to new installs (all 300 of them) and you get access to tesla superchargers if you buy an adapter. If you manage to drive a CCS1 for 20 years it might be a problem but it's not an issue today.

kj4ips 3y ago

The main concern for me is that this may very well allow Tesla to gatekeep the entire NA EV/EVSE market, since they still control the patents around NACS, and their pledge has carve-outs allows them to exclude pretty much every major player for one reason or another. (I am also assuming that adapters well be relatively available in the 2+ years til implementation, so the CCS2-equiped fleet isn't left out in the cold) If they were willing to release it under an OSHW license with a non-revocable patent grant, I'd be fine with it. I agree that Tesla superchargers do tend to provide a better UX than their competition, some of that is vertical synergy, but a good portion of it is the competition just not being up to snuff.