5 ms·

Just imagine if Google was doing something like this; I bet the HN servers would melt down from the outrage! MS often gets a pass in these areas because people

Just imagine if Google was doing something like this; I bet the HN servers would melt down from the outrage! MS often gets a pass in these areas because people think of it as the "underdog", when in reality, MSFT is the biggest software company out there.

paxys 3y ago
Yup, pretty common theme on this and other online communities. If Apple does something – this is obviously the correct thing to do, and everyone should copy them. If Microsoft does the same thing – meh, no one cares. If Google or Meta does the same thing – pitchforks, outrage, a thousand daily top-voted blog posts detailing how terrible these companies are. Goes to show how much of the current outrage culture is driven by marketing and perception rather than reality.
- nologic01 3y ago
  this is such superficial analysis. People use to hate Microsoft because it was a monopoly. Apple was the underdog. Ultimately the MS hate was the perfect case of watch what you wish for. Because both companies back then were actually selling stuff to users. Then came the culture of "do not evil" and "move fast and break things". Users became product, the only clients are the advertisers. Technology was not sold, it was simply provided for "free". This undercut the old MS monopoly which survived because of its corporate stranglehold. Apple flourished through devices and could afford to take the moral high ground on privacy. But the political and regulatory normalization and extreme profitability of surveillance capitalism means that there is no technology company today that can afford not to be an adtech company.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- AHOHA 3y ago
  It’s probably because both MS and Apple actually sell products, hardware and software that used daily and the alternatives aren’t competing much, and then having these “occasional” privacy violations issues, FB/Google on the other hand, having their whole business model about selling your data. But I disagree that they (MS/Apple) get a pass, those are the reasons why some choose to use open source alternatives like linux etc.
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    Google doesn't sell your data. They use your data to sell ads. Big difference. Cambridge analytica was a Facebook scandal, not Google. And if you haven't noticed, literally every tech company (apple, Amazon, Ms, Netflix,...) is now attempting to get in on the online ads market.
- wewtyflakes 3y ago
  This does not align with my experience with HN. The pitchforks were properly out and aggressively poking at Apple when Apple declared that images uploaded to the cloud would be actively scanned and reviewed for illegal content. It got to the point where Apple reversed its decision.
  - brookst 3y ago
    Exactly this. And with very little outrage that Google and others already do that same scanning, in the cloud, with no transparency.
    - bagacrap 3y ago
      I don't think Google is legally allowed to host child porn on its servers so I'm not sure why there should be outrage about that
      - brookst 3y ago
        Nobody knows what Google scans for, in which regions, at the behest of which governments. And it can change moment to moment, and nobody knows when it changes.
        bagacrap 3y ago
        Is there a company that doesn't obey the local laws in the regions where it operates?
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    >It got to the point where Apple reversed its decision. Nice? HN users tend to use more Apple and Linux. If Microsoft gets more of a pass my guess is it's because no one expects anything from them. The opinion of many HN users about Windows and Edge is already very low.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Maybe in other communities, but MSFT gets thrashed pretty thoroughly around here, especially when it comes to Edge and Windows. The response to this post is nothing like "meh", and what I'm seeing here is pretty typical of Edge or Windows posts these days. Here are some of the recent posts I can find about Edge and Windows. There's no shortage of outrage and frustration: Microsoft Edge removes ability to delete Sync Data from Cloud - Jun 2023 (186 points, 118 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36267087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36267087 The Day Windows Died - Apr 2023 (1146 points, 894 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35415758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35415758 The dark defaults of Microsoft Edge - Mar 2023 (506 points, 377 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35207830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35207830 Not-so-great features coming soon to Windows 11 - Dec 2022 (543 points, 654 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33943777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33943777
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  >this is obviously the correct thing to do, and everyone should copy them. This is either the result of decades of marketing or astroturfing.
- opportune 3y ago
  It’s not just marketing, News media hate Google and Facebook for controlling their top-of-funnel and generally outcompeting them in the eyeball market. They will never allow good coverage of them. There’s also the general media trend of punching up / publishing surprising content so it gets clicks. Google especially had the reputation for being “good” for so long that any kind of expose or criticism rings as juicy and surprising. Microsoft had the reputation for being “bad” for so long that they are expected to be bad; it’s them being “good” that is surprising and gets clicks.
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    Bingo. In addition this I think a lot of software professionals hate Google because they failed the interview.
jqpabc123 3y ago
MSFT is the biggest software company out there. And Google is the biggest privacy invader out there.
- jimsimmons 3y ago
  Except that posts like this should change your beliefs towards who the biggest privacy invader really is
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    MSFT's main product is software and services. Google's main product is YOU. Without your privacy, they would have nothing to sell to advertisers --- which accounts for about 80 percent of their revenue.
    - jimsimmons 3y ago
      Windows is free. MSFT is literally siphoning data from your personal devices. You’re speaking on an agenda without accounting for reality
      - partiallypro 3y ago
        Windows isn't free, you are paying a licensing fee when you buy a PC, it's just baked into the price and you don't realize it. If you tried shipping out PCs without a license, you'd be promptly found out and sued (at least in Western countries).
      - jqpabc123 3y ago
        More than 80 percent of Google's revenue comes directly from selling your privacy to advertisers --- aka "personalized" ads. More then 80 percent of MSFT's revenue comes directly from selling software and services. Google earns about as much money from privacy invasion as MSFT does from software and data services. You can try to deny or ignore the reality of it --- but you have nothing to refute it other than personal bias.
malfist 3y ago
I don't see anyone here defending microsoft for this.
lolinder 3y ago
This post has >100 votes in 1 hour, with >30 comments all to the tune of "wow, this is awful." If there are people here defending MSFT, they're not prominent. I'm not sure what more you expect?
Solvency 3y ago
In 2023 what does biggest mean? Biggest in terms of programmer headcount? In terms of market share (which markets)? In terms of revenue? In terms of # of products? In terms of total users? Just curious what the qualifiers are.
- jimsimmons 3y ago
  Market cap. They’ve the most money and enjoy highest PE ratio
gordian-not 3y ago
If it makes you feel any better I still remember a time when it was exactly the other way around
electroly 3y ago
I went through literally every reply in this HN thread and I didn't see anyone defending Microsoft. Two pages as of the time of this writing, I looked at every subthread. And the servers ARE melting down! (But not because of this.) Are we talking about the same website?
mirkules 3y ago
Is there a general assumption/consensus that Google doesn’t do stuff like this? My assumption is that any closed-source software can collect any data they want about their users. “If they can, they will.” The past 20 years has been a steady march towards desensitizing users towards making users give up their privacy.
pessimizer 3y ago
This is a bizarre perspective. I don't know anyone who thinks of Microsoft as the underdog. I don't know anyone who would support Microsoft viewing their browsing, but condemn Google for the same thing. Your brand loyalty is fooling you into thinking that criticism of your favorite product is the same as promotion of your favorite product's competitors.

paxys 3y ago

Yup, pretty common theme on this and other online communities. If Apple does something – this is obviously the correct thing to do, and everyone should copy them. If Microsoft does the same thing – meh, no one cares. If Google or Meta does the same thing – pitchforks, outrage, a thousand daily top-voted blog posts detailing how terrible these companies are. Goes to show how much of the current outrage culture is driven by marketing and perception rather than reality.

nologic01 3y ago
this is such superficial analysis. People use to hate Microsoft because it was a monopoly. Apple was the underdog. Ultimately the MS hate was the perfect case of watch what you wish for. Because both companies back then were actually selling stuff to users. Then came the culture of "do not evil" and "move fast and break things". Users became product, the only clients are the advertisers. Technology was not sold, it was simply provided for "free". This undercut the old MS monopoly which survived because of its corporate stranglehold. Apple flourished through devices and could afford to take the moral high ground on privacy. But the political and regulatory normalization and extreme profitability of surveillance capitalism means that there is no technology company today that can afford not to be an adtech company.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
AHOHA 3y ago
It’s probably because both MS and Apple actually sell products, hardware and software that used daily and the alternatives aren’t competing much, and then having these “occasional” privacy violations issues, FB/Google on the other hand, having their whole business model about selling your data. But I disagree that they (MS/Apple) get a pass, those are the reasons why some choose to use open source alternatives like linux etc.
- bagacrap 3y ago
  Google doesn't sell your data. They use your data to sell ads. Big difference. Cambridge analytica was a Facebook scandal, not Google. And if you haven't noticed, literally every tech company (apple, Amazon, Ms, Netflix,...) is now attempting to get in on the online ads market.
wewtyflakes 3y ago
This does not align with my experience with HN. The pitchforks were properly out and aggressively poking at Apple when Apple declared that images uploaded to the cloud would be actively scanned and reviewed for illegal content. It got to the point where Apple reversed its decision.
- brookst 3y ago
  Exactly this. And with very little outrage that Google and others already do that same scanning, in the cloud, with no transparency.
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    I don't think Google is legally allowed to host child porn on its servers so I'm not sure why there should be outrage about that
    - brookst 3y ago
      Nobody knows what Google scans for, in which regions, at the behest of which governments. And it can change moment to moment, and nobody knows when it changes.
      - bagacrap 3y ago
        Is there a company that doesn't obey the local laws in the regions where it operates?
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  >It got to the point where Apple reversed its decision. Nice? HN users tend to use more Apple and Linux. If Microsoft gets more of a pass my guess is it's because no one expects anything from them. The opinion of many HN users about Windows and Edge is already very low.
lolinder 3y ago
Maybe in other communities, but MSFT gets thrashed pretty thoroughly around here, especially when it comes to Edge and Windows. The response to this post is nothing like "meh", and what I'm seeing here is pretty typical of Edge or Windows posts these days. Here are some of the recent posts I can find about Edge and Windows. There's no shortage of outrage and frustration: Microsoft Edge removes ability to delete Sync Data from Cloud - Jun 2023 (186 points, 118 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36267087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36267087 The Day Windows Died - Apr 2023 (1146 points, 894 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35415758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35415758 The dark defaults of Microsoft Edge - Mar 2023 (506 points, 377 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35207830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35207830 Not-so-great features coming soon to Windows 11 - Dec 2022 (543 points, 654 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33943777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33943777
hospitalJail 3y ago
>this is obviously the correct thing to do, and everyone should copy them. This is either the result of decades of marketing or astroturfing.
opportune 3y ago
It’s not just marketing, News media hate Google and Facebook for controlling their top-of-funnel and generally outcompeting them in the eyeball market. They will never allow good coverage of them. There’s also the general media trend of punching up / publishing surprising content so it gets clicks. Google especially had the reputation for being “good” for so long that any kind of expose or criticism rings as juicy and surprising. Microsoft had the reputation for being “bad” for so long that they are expected to be bad; it’s them being “good” that is surprising and gets clicks.
- bagacrap 3y ago
  Bingo. In addition this I think a lot of software professionals hate Google because they failed the interview.

jqpabc123 3y ago

MSFT is the biggest software company out there. And Google is the biggest privacy invader out there.

jimsimmons 3y ago
Except that posts like this should change your beliefs towards who the biggest privacy invader really is
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  MSFT's main product is software and services. Google's main product is YOU. Without your privacy, they would have nothing to sell to advertisers --- which accounts for about 80 percent of their revenue.
  - jimsimmons 3y ago
    Windows is free. MSFT is literally siphoning data from your personal devices. You’re speaking on an agenda without accounting for reality
    - partiallypro 3y ago
      Windows isn't free, you are paying a licensing fee when you buy a PC, it's just baked into the price and you don't realize it. If you tried shipping out PCs without a license, you'd be promptly found out and sued (at least in Western countries).
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      More than 80 percent of Google's revenue comes directly from selling your privacy to advertisers --- aka "personalized" ads. More then 80 percent of MSFT's revenue comes directly from selling software and services. Google earns about as much money from privacy invasion as MSFT does from software and data services. You can try to deny or ignore the reality of it --- but you have nothing to refute it other than personal bias.

malfist 3y ago

I don't see anyone here defending microsoft for this.

lolinder 3y ago

This post has >100 votes in 1 hour, with >30 comments all to the tune of "wow, this is awful." If there are people here defending MSFT, they're not prominent. I'm not sure what more you expect?

Solvency 3y ago

In 2023 what does biggest mean? Biggest in terms of programmer headcount? In terms of market share (which markets)? In terms of revenue? In terms of # of products? In terms of total users? Just curious what the qualifiers are.

jimsimmons 3y ago
Market cap. They’ve the most money and enjoy highest PE ratio

gordian-not 3y ago

If it makes you feel any better I still remember a time when it was exactly the other way around

electroly 3y ago

I went through literally every reply in this HN thread and I didn't see anyone defending Microsoft. Two pages as of the time of this writing, I looked at every subthread. And the servers ARE melting down! (But not because of this.) Are we talking about the same website?

mirkules 3y ago

Is there a general assumption/consensus that Google doesn’t do stuff like this? My assumption is that any closed-source software can collect any data they want about their users. “If they can, they will.” The past 20 years has been a steady march towards desensitizing users towards making users give up their privacy.

pessimizer 3y ago

This is a bizarre perspective. I don't know anyone who thinks of Microsoft as the underdog. I don't know anyone who would support Microsoft viewing their browsing, but condemn Google for the same thing. Your brand loyalty is fooling you into thinking that criticism of your favorite product is the same as promotion of your favorite product's competitors.