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Tesla chargers win more backers as its plug becomes US standard
- activiation 3y agoPretty sure the title is wrong and that it isnt a US Standard... Pretty sure CCS is though.
- sp332 3y agoThe standard was opened last year.
- josephcsible 3y agoWhat definition of "a US Standard" are you using exactly, and why do you think CCS meets it but NACS doesn't?
- activiation 3y agoTo be able to be subsidized for building chargers in the US, you need to have CCS. To me that makes it more like a real standard in the US.
- josephcsible 3y agoJust because some law references one particular standard doesn't mean it's the only standard that exists.
- kanbara 3y agocalling your own implementation a standard is like trying to make fetch happen; it’s so disingenuous. ccs is government funded, tesla “nacs” is not. if you want tesla to be standard, sure. open it up, get all automakers on board, dont charge royalties, and let’s see. it’s so asinine that NA and ROW will have different ac and dc charging. why cant we just have one global standard? preferably one not controlled by a rich megalomaniac
- josephcsible 3y ago> calling your own implementation a standard is like trying to make fetch happen; it’s so disingenuous. Is Intel not allowed to call USB4 a standard? > ccs is government funded, tesla “nacs” is not. Are USB or PCIe government funded? Are they not standards either? > if you want tesla to be standard, sure. open it up, get all automakers on board, dont charge royalties, and let’s see. Didn't Tesla already do those things? (Assuming you meant "some other" instead of "all", because if you didn't, then USB-C wouldn't be a standard either since iPhones don't use it.)
- valianteffort 3y agoThe overwhelming majority of EV chargers in the US use NACS, that is what makes it the standard.
- saalweachter 3y agoIt looks like there are roughly 128k public EV charging stations in the US, of which 28k are DC fast chargers, of which 17k are Tesla Superchargers and 6600 are CSS chargers. So NACS is beating CSS roughly 3:1, but J1772 still outnumbers NACS something like 5:1.
- sugarpile 3y agoFord and GM recently announced they will be using NACS for new electric vehicles. NACS is the standard.
- josephcsible 3y agoTesla Destination Chargers are public EV charging stations that aren't DC fast chargers but are NACS. You appear to be counting them all as J1772 instead.
- saalweachter 3y agoHmmm, fair point. Looks like there are around 4000 Tesla Destination Chargers in the US; that shifts the numbers to more like 32:7:2 for J1772:NACS:CSS.
- jasode 3y ago>Pretty sure the title is wrong and that it isnt a US Standard... Pretty sure CCS is though. The Bloomberg article is describing a defacto USA Standard while omitting the word "defacto": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto If NACS outnumbers CCS enough in marketshare, it will become a defacto standard and everybody in conversational usage will just call it a "standard" instead of "defacto standard". Whether that threshold has actually been reached and NACS is truly a defacto standard today may be debated.
- sp332 3y agoHow will this affect home chargers? Will future Fords require an adapter to work with a home CCS charger? Will this affect compatibility with V2H?
- josephcsible 3y agoHome CCS chargers don't exist.
- vardump 3y agoIIRC, in Europe you can buy 40 kW CCS charger for about $20k and install it at home. You only need 3x63A (~43 kW at 230V) line to run it. A quick web search finds a lot of CCS charger resellers.
- josephcsible 3y agoEurope uses CCS2, which is a different thing than the CCS in North America. And even if something comparable were available, given the cost and other requirements, I highly doubt there'd be more than a few dozen total installations.
- vardump 3y agoIt's called CCS in Europe all the same. No idea how many installations, but the point is you can have one at home.
- josephcsible 3y ago> No idea how many installations, but the point is you can have one at home. Okay, maybe my statement was slightly too strong, but that feels like nitpicking the statement "all Teslas are EVs" because of the one ICE conversion from Rich Rebuilds.
- vardump 3y ago
- Pwntastic 3y agohttps://archive.is/t55MU https://archive.is/t55MU
- throwaway5959 3y agoSo far it’s looking like VW and Hyundai/Kia may be left out in the cold, especially if there’s no adapter made for NACS/CCS for those brands (GM/Ford are getting some made so they’ll be fine).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- enragedcacti 3y agoThe adapters shouldn't be a big deal. All new Teslas are able to use the CCS protocol over the NACS port and any new chargers implementing NACS will likely use it as well so any dumb adapter should work perfectly fine with a 3rd party NACS charger. GM/Ford additionally may have some special sauce that will let them use superchargers but that's somewhat of a separate issue.
- throwaway5959 3y agoThat assumes third party chargers survive. If Ford and GM all start charging at Superchargers instead that’s less revenue to support EA/etc, regardless of how good they get in the future.
- yieldcrv 3y agowill this also allow future EVs to supercharge (charge quickly) at the current Tesla charging stations? if so, that makes me happy
- baggachipz 3y agoYep[1] [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/15/tesla-chargers-public-electric-vehicles-00082875 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/15/tesla-chargers-publ...
- mkozlows 3y agoThat is completely unrelated news about Tesla agreeing to use the actual standard (CCS) in their chargers to get federal funds. This news is about Tesla working Ford and GM to try to kill CCS. They're opposite pieces of news.
- throwaway5959 3y agoFord and GM, yes. Other manufacturers it’s an open question.
- joshl32532 3y agoHow does this benefit Tesla? Are they receiving royalty for each NACS shipped?
- dogma1138 3y agoThey don’t, but they’ll be able to capitalize on this by opening up their charging infrastructure and also make it so that more and more non Tesla public charging stations will be able to support their customer base.
- bitshiftfaced 3y agoI don't find this explanation very satisfying. Now Tesla's competitors will have the same access to the charging network, leveling the playing field in that regard. I wonder if this was mostly about not wanting to look like a jerk.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago> Now Tesla's competitors will have the same access to the charging network, leveling the playing field in that regard. Yes, but I could see Tesla giving a discount to Tesla owners so they pay less than Ford drivers.
- dogma1138 3y agoTesla owners would benefit from the expanded network, and Tesla does not need to invest as much in its charging infrastructure which quite possibly been so far their most expensive single ticket capex. They also don’t have to worry about regulators pushing an alternative charging standard which makes all of their existing investment in infrastructure obsolete overnight and would increase the TCO for operating their charging infrastructure considerably. If Teslas only advantage is their proprietary charging network and plug they might as well close up shop now.
- mkozlows 3y agoThe benefit for Tesla is simple and twofold: 1. If CCS took off as the standard (which it was extremely going to), then Tesla having an awkward proprietary charging port makes using a Tesla annoying, and they'd eventually have to transition over to CCS for their cars. It's like Apple having to switch from Lightning to USB-C -- an annoying transition that angers your early customers and makes them feel abandoned. 2. They have a giant network of NACS chargers. To receive federal subsidies, they have been planning to convert those to CCS. The argument they're going to make now -- helped by headlines like this inaccurate one -- is that NACS is the "real" standard, and the government should change the rules so that they subsidize NACS chargers. Then they can continue to make NACS-only chargers that don't support CCS, while taking taxpayer dollars to do so. (The government as of right now still holds the position that CCS is the official standard, and any charger receiving subsidy money needs to support CCS, but will that position hold up with GM and Ford joining Tesla in lobbying for NACS?)
- Night_Thastus 3y agoI don't know how to feel about this. Honestly, I think CCS is a perfectly fine solution that was basically the de-facto standard anyways for many years (everyone was on it except Tesla). But if swapping to NACS provides consumers and manufacturers less resistance to swapping to electric, that isn't a bad thing. As long as we have inter-operability that isn't a nightmare, it's fine.
- mkozlows 3y agoBut of course it's going to provide more resistance. As you say, CCS was the obvious standard -- everyone (except Tesla) building a car was using CCS, and everyone (including Tesla) building chargers going forward was using CCS. You could buy a car with CCS and be confident you were buying the standard, well-supported thing. You could install CCS chargers in your garage, apartment complex, business parking lot, etc. and be confident that you were installing the standard, well-supported thing. Now all that's up in the air. If you were planning to install chargers at home or in your business, it's not clear what kind you should install, so you just won't. If you were on the fence about buying an EV, it's now not clear whether your EV will be compatible with future chargers (without requiring a stupid dongle adapter that you have to haul around and pop out of your trunk every time you stop to charge), and you might just put that on hold. (This is particularly egregious for Ford/GM, since their CEOs have announced that they think NACS is the path forward, and they make zero NACS cars and will not make any NACS cars until 2025. They just osborned their entire lineup, great move, real awesome strategy there.) The uncertainty caused by backtracking from the vision of CCS as universal standard is awful, and may slow the EV transition by years. (But it's great for Tesla, inasmuch as a standards-compliant non-vendor-dependent charging network helps Tesla's competitors, and so slowing down that buildout makes Tesla stronger.)
- cduzz 3y agoCCS1 is a DC Fast charging plug / protocol. You're not installing that at home. I have a tesla; I got a cheap charger on amazon and use the j1772 converter that came with my car to charge the car. Another friend, also with a tesla, also does home charging using a "standard" plug and a j1772 adapter. There are even "tesla to j1772" adapters. The CCS1 plug is enormous and silly. The existing DC fast charging networks tha aren't run by tesla are absurdly bad. They failed because they were setup to drive people away from EVs (seemingly) -- deeply unreliable and expensive and poorly placed. This whole "Tesla plug standard wins" thing is around DC fast charging and not L2 / AC charging, where the plug barely matters -- everyone will use a cheap passive adapter and move on with their lives (I use an adapter basically everywhere I charge and barely notice)