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I think the parent comment is suggesting that "engineering talent on par with the USA" == "elite engineering talent". In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate tha

I think the parent comment is suggesting that "engineering talent on par with the USA" == "elite engineering talent". In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate that ~1/3 of my Canadian engineering graduating class are now in the US, either working or researching at US institutions, with most of these folks representing the top 1/3 of the class.

markusde 3y ago
Can confirm. Just graduated, and a significant chunk of my cohort is going or is planning to go south. Mind, I don't get the impression that they want to stay in the states. I include myself in that camp, the plan eventually being to work remote for an American company from Canada.
- boringg 3y ago
  There's a catch with that strategy - need a Canadian operation or they have a big administrative overhead to keeping you on board. Remote pay question marks too.
  - throwboatyface 3y ago
    IME most places will take you on as a contractor or use a PEO. If they're open to remote they'll find a way. Canadians are so cheap it's still worth the overhead
    - boringg 3y ago
      Yeah but if the point is to get US salary not sure you get the trade off benefits.
      - 908B64B197 3y ago
        Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.
        johnwalkr 3y ago
        For software developers your comment is correct. If you’re a Canadian citizen and a professional engineer all you need to get a TN visa is a job offer. There is a path to get both citizenship and a professional engineering title for foreign engineers so eventually the engineers with an engineering degree can make it to the US.
TMWNN 3y ago
>In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate that ~1/3 of my Canadian engineering graduating class are now in the US, either working or researching at US institutions, with most of these folks representing the top 1/3 of the class. Similarly, in a IEEE survey of scientists from 16 countries <http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-brain-trad http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...>, the US is the top destination from 13 of the 15 others and the #2 choice from the other two. If you are a Canadian scientist, there is a 16% chance <https://np.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the_global_brain_trade/ https://np.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the_...> that you will move to the US. That's not "16% of all Canadian scientists that move out of the country move to the US". Let me repeat: 16% of *all* Canadian scientists move to the US. As you noted, they're also likely to be among the top Canadian scientists, too. By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  Anecdotally, seems there's a lot of Canadians expats here in the Valley and they don't seem too keen on returning. We've been getting a lot of international applicants (but work from home was supposed to mean Canadians could avoid moving to the "dangerous" US but work for American companies?). Post 2016 the messaging from most commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to be that they were going to be the ones benefiting from a brain drain of Americans leaving the country. Canada was supposed to become an "AI Superpower" and its Universities were supposed to be where innovation was going to happen next due to the perceived hostility of the United States to foreign talent. Canada sure had a lot of "talent" immigrate in the meantime, but from my observations it's mostly people who can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary. It's interesting, in retrospective, to see how wrong these predictions were. Top destination for Canadian nationals in Academia was, and still is... the US.

markusde 3y ago

Can confirm. Just graduated, and a significant chunk of my cohort is going or is planning to go south. Mind, I don't get the impression that they want to stay in the states. I include myself in that camp, the plan eventually being to work remote for an American company from Canada.

boringg 3y ago
There's a catch with that strategy - need a Canadian operation or they have a big administrative overhead to keeping you on board. Remote pay question marks too.
- throwboatyface 3y ago
  IME most places will take you on as a contractor or use a PEO. If they're open to remote they'll find a way. Canadians are so cheap it's still worth the overhead
  - boringg 3y ago
    Yeah but if the point is to get US salary not sure you get the trade off benefits.
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.
      - johnwalkr 3y ago
        For software developers your comment is correct. If you’re a Canadian citizen and a professional engineer all you need to get a TN visa is a job offer. There is a path to get both citizenship and a professional engineering title for foreign engineers so eventually the engineers with an engineering degree can make it to the US.

TMWNN 3y ago

>In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate that ~1/3 of my Canadian engineering graduating class are now in the US, either working or researching at US institutions, with most of these folks representing the top 1/3 of the class. Similarly, in a IEEE survey of scientists from 16 countries <http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-brain-trad http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...>, the US is the top destination from 13 of the 15 others and the #2 choice from the other two. If you are a Canadian scientist, there is a 16% chance <https://np.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the_global_brain_trade/ https://np.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the_...> that you will move to the US. That's not "16% of all Canadian scientists that move out of the country move to the US". Let me repeat: 16% of *all* Canadian scientists move to the US. As you noted, they're also likely to be among the top Canadian scientists, too. By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.

908B64B197 3y ago
Anecdotally, seems there's a lot of Canadians expats here in the Valley and they don't seem too keen on returning. We've been getting a lot of international applicants (but work from home was supposed to mean Canadians could avoid moving to the "dangerous" US but work for American companies?). Post 2016 the messaging from most commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to be that they were going to be the ones benefiting from a brain drain of Americans leaving the country. Canada was supposed to become an "AI Superpower" and its Universities were supposed to be where innovation was going to happen next due to the perceived hostility of the United States to foreign talent. Canada sure had a lot of "talent" immigrate in the meantime, but from my observations it's mostly people who can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary. It's interesting, in retrospective, to see how wrong these predictions were. Top destination for Canadian nationals in Academia was, and still is... the US.