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Lots of comments about Avro Arrow here lool. As a Canadian, I'm both proud and saddened by the fact that although we have elite engineering talent, that talent

Lots of comments about Avro Arrow here lool. As a Canadian, I'm both proud and saddened by the fact that although we have elite engineering talent, that talent tends to be drained to the US. Side note, just a couple decades after the Arrow, Canadian researchers once again lead the world, but this time in the field of AI, specifically deep learning. However, what happened after that? Google hired Geoffrey Hinton, and the industrial might of the US took over. Perhaps this is inevitable given that we are much weaker economically compared to the US. However, one last thought is that, aerospace vs software is not the same. For aerospace, yea I think you need a giant super power of a nation to keep it alive. However, software can be built by one guy in a garage. I'm not sure why Canada just let its dominance in AI "slip away". Also side side note about Avro Arrow, is it just a weird naming coincidence that the two Apache projects exists: Avro and Arrow? I think Avro is named after the original British Avro company. However, I don't think Arrow has anything to do with aviation.

jsbg 3y ago
> However, software can be built by one guy in a garage. I'm not sure why Canada just let its dominance in AI "slip away". Could be that Canadian software engineers prefer to move to the US to make much better money.
- cabernal 3y ago
  This was an opportunity for Canadian VCs/Investors/Gov to invest heavily on AI talent. This isn't what happened; the majority of capital continues to flow to real state. Lacking investment, banks acqui-hired promising talent/startups, those remaining went to the US and now the AI industry in Canada is on life support.
polishdude20 3y ago
Is there proof that we have "elite engineering talent" and that's why it gets drained? Or is it the fact that we have engineering talent on par with the USA but the USA is willing to pay them more because they have a larger need for engineers?
- chabons 3y ago
  I think the parent comment is suggesting that "engineering talent on par with the USA" == "elite engineering talent". In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate that ~1/3 of my Canadian engineering graduating class are now in the US, either working or researching at US institutions, with most of these folks representing the top 1/3 of the class.
  - markusde 3y ago
    Can confirm. Just graduated, and a significant chunk of my cohort is going or is planning to go south. Mind, I don't get the impression that they want to stay in the states. I include myself in that camp, the plan eventually being to work remote for an American company from Canada.
    - boringg 3y ago
      There's a catch with that strategy - need a Canadian operation or they have a big administrative overhead to keeping you on board. Remote pay question marks too.
      - throwboatyface 3y ago
        IME most places will take you on as a contractor or use a PEO. If they're open to remote they'll find a way. Canadians are so cheap it's still worth the overhead
        boringg 3y ago
        Yeah but if the point is to get US salary not sure you get the trade off benefits.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.
nightowl_games 3y ago
Don't forget about Nortel! They got all their IP stolen by Huawei! Your welcome Huawei!
ambicapter 3y ago
> However, software can be built by one guy in a garage. Not for these AI models. The deciding factor seems to be the resources you can throw at it in training.

jsbg 3y ago

> However, software can be built by one guy in a garage. I'm not sure why Canada just let its dominance in AI "slip away". Could be that Canadian software engineers prefer to move to the US to make much better money.

cabernal 3y ago
This was an opportunity for Canadian VCs/Investors/Gov to invest heavily on AI talent. This isn't what happened; the majority of capital continues to flow to real state. Lacking investment, banks acqui-hired promising talent/startups, those remaining went to the US and now the AI industry in Canada is on life support.

polishdude20 3y ago

Is there proof that we have "elite engineering talent" and that's why it gets drained? Or is it the fact that we have engineering talent on par with the USA but the USA is willing to pay them more because they have a larger need for engineers?

chabons 3y ago
I think the parent comment is suggesting that "engineering talent on par with the USA" == "elite engineering talent". In my anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate that ~1/3 of my Canadian engineering graduating class are now in the US, either working or researching at US institutions, with most of these folks representing the top 1/3 of the class.
- markusde 3y ago
  Can confirm. Just graduated, and a significant chunk of my cohort is going or is planning to go south. Mind, I don't get the impression that they want to stay in the states. I include myself in that camp, the plan eventually being to work remote for an American company from Canada.
  - boringg 3y ago
    There's a catch with that strategy - need a Canadian operation or they have a big administrative overhead to keeping you on board. Remote pay question marks too.
    - throwboatyface 3y ago
      IME most places will take you on as a contractor or use a PEO. If they're open to remote they'll find a way. Canadians are so cheap it's still worth the overhead
      - boringg 3y ago
        Yeah but if the point is to get US salary not sure you get the trade off benefits.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.

nightowl_games 3y ago

Don't forget about Nortel! They got all their IP stolen by Huawei! Your welcome Huawei!

ambicapter 3y ago

> However, software can be built by one guy in a garage. Not for these AI models. The deciding factor seems to be the resources you can throw at it in training.