5 ms·

As a fellow millennial I don't know what people are talking about. The world is way better today than when I was a kid: All sorts of racism and prejudice are

by treis 3y ago

As a fellow millennial I don't know what people are talking about. The world is way better today than when I was a kid: All sorts of racism and prejudice are at much lower levels than when I was a kid. I went through two economic crises by the time I was 21. The US fought two wars in my prime war fighting years. (Though fortunately not me but friends died). Technology has continued it's steady march. If you gave me a choice between being born today and being born when I was I'd take today without hesitation. Things haven't become Utopian yet but they are steadily getting better.

kjkjadksj 3y ago
They are talking about the economic situation. You are a millenial on hn, you are probably doing fine. A lot of your peers otoh are living with their parents still, have a mountain of debt, have put off having kids, aren’t in a career path to change much of this and don’t have the skills or the money or time to switch into a more lucrative field and be competitive relative to new grads.
- treis 3y ago
  > A lot of your peers otoh are living with their parents still, have a mountain of debt, have put off having kids, aren’t in a career path to change much of this and don’t have the skills or the money or time to switch into a more lucrative field and be competitive relative to new grads. Yes I know. This happened because they graduated into the face of one of the recessions. Or maybe they went to war and lost their 20s battling PTSD. These effects persist for a long time which is why a lot of my generation was left behind. Obviously can't predict the future, but for those that came of age post 2008 the economy has been remarkably resilient. They haven't experienced something like a chunk of engineering graduates that can't get jobs. I was lucky and made it out, but the average starting salary of my degree from my school went down significantly because of 2008. A graduate today has no living memory of what an economic recession in the US looks like. And if anyone is wondering it's a lot worse than today or what happened during Covid.
- listenallyall 3y ago
  There's a bit of an exaggeration here... somehow his "peers" are also choosing to order enormous quantities of their meals from DoorDash (doubling the cost), getting bottle service at nightclubs, and taking Instagram-worthy vacations to exotic locales.
shakow 3y ago
> I don't know what people are talking about. Easy: as an engineer, my father in his late 30's could support my mother being a SAHM, three kids, buy a 120m² (IIRC?) small house with a garden, and all the modern commodities (well, safe for electronics that didn't exist at the time). Nowadays, I'm also an engineer in my mid 30's, and I can just buy a 40m² flat. Never talk about kids.
- geysersam 3y ago
  What about location? A flat in an attractive area can be much more expensive than a house somewhere else.
  - shakow 3y ago
    The same city actually (by chance more than anything).
    - treis 3y ago
      But that's not a generalizable like for like comparisons. Yes, cities are more expensive today but they're also not crack induced hellscapes. Crack induced hellscape is obviously an exaggeration but cities were legitimately much worse. Violet crime was 2-3 times higher, pollution was terrible, and they were generally not very nice. It's not a surprise they were cheaper to live in back then. The houses I grew up in are more affordable today then they were when my parents bought them. Inflation adjusted price is about the same but interest rates were far higher.
      - shakow 3y ago
        I have no idea where you live, but that does not really reflect what's happening in my country (France). Criminality rates are roughly stables since the 80's (https://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/sites/default/files/public/media/20100701/A293041A.GIF https://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/sites/default/files/...), French cities in the 80's were definitely not ‶crack-induced hellscapes″ (and if they ever were, it's definitely now, just visit Paris or Marseille by night), and safe for pollution, I don't think they were notably worst or better to live in than now.
adammarples 3y ago
Put yourself in the position of your own child, born today. Can you offer them a better start than your parents did you? Without knowing anything about you it's more likely you have more debt, worse housing, and more expensive childcare to deal with.
- treis 3y ago
  >Put yourself in the position of your own child, born today. Can you offer them a better start than your parents did you? Wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better. My parents entered the work force at the tail end of stagflation. They got to pay 18% on their first mortgage in an economy with twice the unemployment of today. That and since we (for the most part) don't count cohabitating women as whores or birth control a sin means I was much more experienced in relationships than my parents were when they had me. My kid is getting a far more stable environment than I did. And I in turn had a more stable childhood than they did because I wasn't raised by WWII vets that coped with PTSD by drinking. And all that doesn't touch on things like if my kid were Gay, transexual, black/brown, had a mental illness, had a disability, or any number of other things society has become much more enlightened on. Or the cleanliness of the air they're breathing, the lack of lead in our paint, and so on.
  - shakow 3y ago
    > don't count cohabitating women as whores or birth control a sin In which country were your parent born so that was the case 30-50 years ago?
jollyllama 3y ago
Assuming you're an American, consider the affordability of housing when you were a kid compared to now. The teen suicide rate has increased 35% since 1999. [0] Also, baby formula shortages are now a routine thing here; this would have been unthinkable for Americans 30 years ago for a non third-world country. >The US fought two wars in my prime war fighting years. (Though fortunately not me but friends died). And is now entirely reliant on the use of foreign proxies because its will to fight is exhausted (for better or worse). [0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/health/us-suicide-rate-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/health/us-suicide-rate-trnd/i...
master-lincoln 3y ago
I mostly agree with these points from a European perspective, but to contrast this: income decreased on average, the gap between rich and poor increased, many markets are not as competitive anymore, owning housing got unrealistic for most working people, ...
polygotdomain 3y ago
I'm going to disagree that "the world is way better". Don't get me wrong, there's been progress, but there's also a lot of ways it's objectively worse. + Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago + Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years + Economic mobility is significantly worse + The education system is in worse shape than 20+ years ago + Higher education is more costly, and no longer improves prospects of gainful employment nor additional earning potential + Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation + Kids today will be living under a surveillance state from day 1 Yes, technology has advanced, and some social issues have made progress, but others have had significant setbacks (rollback of Roe v Wade, uptick in far right ideologies).
- treis 3y ago
  >+ Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago This is slightly true. Gini index when I was born was 38ish and now it's 40ish. So slightly worse but also because the rich have gotten richer. Not because the poor have gotten poorer in an absolute sense. >+ Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years That's an odd way to say things aren't different from what they were 20 years ago. >+ Economic mobility is significantly worse I don't think that is true. Do you have a cite. Addressing one more: >Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation Anyone talking about health insurance is just not remembering how it was. If words like "HMO" and "pre-existing condition" and "Lifetime maximum" don't send shivers down your spine then you're not correctly remembering how terrible it was. For all the flaws the US health care system has it's simply miles ahead of what it was pre-Obamacare.
  - polygotdomain 3y ago
    >>+ Economic mobility is significantly worse >I don't think that is true. Do you have a cite. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-... There's also studies out there that show where you were born/raised can have a significant impact on mobility >>+ Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years >That's an odd way to say things aren't different from what they were 20 years ago. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that wages have gone up at a lower rate than inflation, therefore leaving the majority of the working class with less buying power than they used to have. >>+ Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago >This is slightly true. Gini index when I was born was 38ish and now it's 40ish. So slightly worse but also because the rich have gotten richer. Not because the poor have gotten poorer in an absolute sense. I think there's more than just the Gini index. Here's an interesting chart that shows the slight rise in Gini that you referenced, but combined with other measures that factor into income inequality. The data is only until 2015, but I doubt it's gotten any better since then. https://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/inequality-by-country/usa/ https://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/inequality-by-... >>Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation >Anyone talking about health insurance is just not remembering how it was. If words like "HMO" and "pre-existing condition" and "Lifetime maximum" don't send shivers down your spine then you're not correctly remembering how terrible it was. For all the flaws the US health care system has it's simply miles ahead of what it was pre-Obamacare. I didn't say that health insurance isn't better than it was. All I'm saying is that costs have outpaced inflation. It doesn't matter because the US healthcare system is still a massive farce and simply exists to leach profits off the American public. Even those that make well into the 6 figures are just one accident or diagnosis away from being massively in debt or driven into destitution just to afford medical care.
candiddevmike 3y ago
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, make of that what you will.

by treis 3y ago

kjkjadksj 3y ago

They are talking about the economic situation. You are a millenial on hn, you are probably doing fine. A lot of your peers otoh are living with their parents still, have a mountain of debt, have put off having kids, aren’t in a career path to change much of this and don’t have the skills or the money or time to switch into a more lucrative field and be competitive relative to new grads.

treis 3y ago
> A lot of your peers otoh are living with their parents still, have a mountain of debt, have put off having kids, aren’t in a career path to change much of this and don’t have the skills or the money or time to switch into a more lucrative field and be competitive relative to new grads. Yes I know. This happened because they graduated into the face of one of the recessions. Or maybe they went to war and lost their 20s battling PTSD. These effects persist for a long time which is why a lot of my generation was left behind. Obviously can't predict the future, but for those that came of age post 2008 the economy has been remarkably resilient. They haven't experienced something like a chunk of engineering graduates that can't get jobs. I was lucky and made it out, but the average starting salary of my degree from my school went down significantly because of 2008. A graduate today has no living memory of what an economic recession in the US looks like. And if anyone is wondering it's a lot worse than today or what happened during Covid.
listenallyall 3y ago
There's a bit of an exaggeration here... somehow his "peers" are also choosing to order enormous quantities of their meals from DoorDash (doubling the cost), getting bottle service at nightclubs, and taking Instagram-worthy vacations to exotic locales.

shakow 3y ago

> I don't know what people are talking about. Easy: as an engineer, my father in his late 30's could support my mother being a SAHM, three kids, buy a 120m² (IIRC?) small house with a garden, and all the modern commodities (well, safe for electronics that didn't exist at the time). Nowadays, I'm also an engineer in my mid 30's, and I can just buy a 40m² flat. Never talk about kids.

geysersam 3y ago
What about location? A flat in an attractive area can be much more expensive than a house somewhere else.
- shakow 3y ago
  The same city actually (by chance more than anything).
  - treis 3y ago
    But that's not a generalizable like for like comparisons. Yes, cities are more expensive today but they're also not crack induced hellscapes. Crack induced hellscape is obviously an exaggeration but cities were legitimately much worse. Violet crime was 2-3 times higher, pollution was terrible, and they were generally not very nice. It's not a surprise they were cheaper to live in back then. The houses I grew up in are more affordable today then they were when my parents bought them. Inflation adjusted price is about the same but interest rates were far higher.
    - shakow 3y ago
      I have no idea where you live, but that does not really reflect what's happening in my country (France). Criminality rates are roughly stables since the 80's (https://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/sites/default/files/public/media/20100701/A293041A.GIF https://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/sites/default/files/...), French cities in the 80's were definitely not ‶crack-induced hellscapes″ (and if they ever were, it's definitely now, just visit Paris or Marseille by night), and safe for pollution, I don't think they were notably worst or better to live in than now.

adammarples 3y ago

Put yourself in the position of your own child, born today. Can you offer them a better start than your parents did you? Without knowing anything about you it's more likely you have more debt, worse housing, and more expensive childcare to deal with.

treis 3y ago
>Put yourself in the position of your own child, born today. Can you offer them a better start than your parents did you? Wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better. My parents entered the work force at the tail end of stagflation. They got to pay 18% on their first mortgage in an economy with twice the unemployment of today. That and since we (for the most part) don't count cohabitating women as whores or birth control a sin means I was much more experienced in relationships than my parents were when they had me. My kid is getting a far more stable environment than I did. And I in turn had a more stable childhood than they did because I wasn't raised by WWII vets that coped with PTSD by drinking. And all that doesn't touch on things like if my kid were Gay, transexual, black/brown, had a mental illness, had a disability, or any number of other things society has become much more enlightened on. Or the cleanliness of the air they're breathing, the lack of lead in our paint, and so on.
- shakow 3y ago
  > don't count cohabitating women as whores or birth control a sin In which country were your parent born so that was the case 30-50 years ago?

jollyllama 3y ago

Assuming you're an American, consider the affordability of housing when you were a kid compared to now. The teen suicide rate has increased 35% since 1999. [0] Also, baby formula shortages are now a routine thing here; this would have been unthinkable for Americans 30 years ago for a non third-world country. >The US fought two wars in my prime war fighting years. (Though fortunately not me but friends died). And is now entirely reliant on the use of foreign proxies because its will to fight is exhausted (for better or worse). [0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/health/us-suicide-rate-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/health/us-suicide-rate-trnd/i...

master-lincoln 3y ago

I mostly agree with these points from a European perspective, but to contrast this: income decreased on average, the gap between rich and poor increased, many markets are not as competitive anymore, owning housing got unrealistic for most working people, ...

polygotdomain 3y ago

I'm going to disagree that "the world is way better". Don't get me wrong, there's been progress, but there's also a lot of ways it's objectively worse. + Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago + Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years + Economic mobility is significantly worse + The education system is in worse shape than 20+ years ago + Higher education is more costly, and no longer improves prospects of gainful employment nor additional earning potential + Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation + Kids today will be living under a surveillance state from day 1 Yes, technology has advanced, and some social issues have made progress, but others have had significant setbacks (rollback of Roe v Wade, uptick in far right ideologies).

treis 3y ago
>+ Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago This is slightly true. Gini index when I was born was 38ish and now it's 40ish. So slightly worse but also because the rich have gotten richer. Not because the poor have gotten poorer in an absolute sense. >+ Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years That's an odd way to say things aren't different from what they were 20 years ago. >+ Economic mobility is significantly worse I don't think that is true. Do you have a cite. Addressing one more: >Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation Anyone talking about health insurance is just not remembering how it was. If words like "HMO" and "pre-existing condition" and "Lifetime maximum" don't send shivers down your spine then you're not correctly remembering how terrible it was. For all the flaws the US health care system has it's simply miles ahead of what it was pre-Obamacare.
- polygotdomain 3y ago
  >>+ Economic mobility is significantly worse >I don't think that is true. Do you have a cite. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/29/stuck-on-... There's also studies out there that show where you were born/raised can have a significant impact on mobility >>+ Stagnated wages relative to inflation for much more than 20+ years >That's an odd way to say things aren't different from what they were 20 years ago. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that wages have gone up at a lower rate than inflation, therefore leaving the majority of the working class with less buying power than they used to have. >>+ Significantly more income inequality than 20+ years ago >This is slightly true. Gini index when I was born was 38ish and now it's 40ish. So slightly worse but also because the rich have gotten richer. Not because the poor have gotten poorer in an absolute sense. I think there's more than just the Gini index. Here's an interesting chart that shows the slight rise in Gini that you referenced, but combined with other measures that factor into income inequality. The data is only until 2015, but I doubt it's gotten any better since then. https://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/inequality-by-country/usa/ https://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/inequality-by-... >>Health insurance costs that significantly outpace inflation >Anyone talking about health insurance is just not remembering how it was. If words like "HMO" and "pre-existing condition" and "Lifetime maximum" don't send shivers down your spine then you're not correctly remembering how terrible it was. For all the flaws the US health care system has it's simply miles ahead of what it was pre-Obamacare. I didn't say that health insurance isn't better than it was. All I'm saying is that costs have outpaced inflation. It doesn't matter because the US healthcare system is still a massive farce and simply exists to leach profits off the American public. Even those that make well into the 6 figures are just one accident or diagnosis away from being massively in debt or driven into destitution just to afford medical care.

candiddevmike 3y ago

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, make of that what you will.