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> Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth Also the 'single biggest way' to become unhealthy, weak, and scrawny. There is

by wyager 3y ago

> Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth Also the 'single biggest way' to become unhealthy, weak, and scrawny. There is no conceivable way that the (putative, but questionable) negative externalities of healthy food consumption outweigh that. Also, given that anti-meat activism tends to be either quasi- or literally religious (in the case of groups like Seventh-day adventists), of course my prior is that any anti-meat activist can dump a huge pile of link spam saying "hey, check it out, every problem is actually caused by that thing I don't like". This has little bearing on my posterior distribution, because every time I've looked into specific claims about emission equivalence or deforestation, they are methodologically very dishonest (typically by tricks like falsely equating protein quality or assigning revenue in bizarre ways).

cloverich 3y ago
One of my favorite NFL players was Vegan. He would uhh... run people over and generally out class people constantly. A quick google search of "NFL players who are vegan" reveals several well known players. These are among the strongest, most athletic people to have ever existed. So whatever the challenges of being vegan, I suspect "being weak" is certainly not one of them.
- mr_mitm 3y ago
  Have they always been vegan though? A glance at [0] shows they all decided to go vegan at some point in their adult life. Growing big and strong on a regular diet and then turning vegan does not exactly support the vegan lifestyle. Even this vegan powerlifter [1] turned vegan only at 32 (vegetarian at 26). [0] https://www.livekindly.com/vegan-nfl-players/ https://www.livekindly.com/vegan-nfl-players/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian
  - cloverich 3y ago
    > Have they always been vegan though? That's a fair point. Another athlete I do follow who is ripped[1], has been reportedly Vegan since he was 2. Generally speaking when I think of building muscle in the gym, I think of protein powder and supplements as opposed to eating ever larger quantities of meat; I don't think that's controversial? AFAIK the only thing you need if you are vegan is a Vitamin supplement. I'm not a Vegan promoter or anything -- I'm not even sure what a Vegan eats for most of their meals (but would love to learn). But having some background in nutrition I'm skeptical there's any shortcoming to being Vegetarian, Vegan, etc, that a very simple supplement (i.e. like one regular vitamin) wouldn't overcome. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLfGBK67xY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLfGBK67xY
    - wyager 3y ago
      > I think of protein powder and supplements Most protein powder is whey-based (not vegan). Whey protein is generally inferior to muscle, connective tissue, etc. but it's typically a lot cheaper. It's better than plant-based alternatives though. Plant protein efficiency is terrible compared to animal protein efficiency, so any moderately muscular vegan is likely eating prodigious quantities of mediocre protein sources like peanut butter. > AFAIK the only thing you need if you are vegan is a Vitamin supplement. This is what some vegans will tell you, but you only need to look at the ones saying this to know it's not true. I know some vegans who could be mistaken for non-vegans from a fitness standpoint, and they put quite a lot of work into maintaining their diet. More than just taking a few vitamin pills. OTOH, you can achieve better results by just eating a lot of steak...
- wyager 3y ago
  Yes, the top 0.001% of genetic freak athletes with the world's best nutritionists and fitness consultants can get away with a highly constrained diet (for a while, at least). BTW, famous vegan athletes almost never start vegan, and tend to quickly retire due to increased injury rates and slowed recovery.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Some epistemically sound research to back up your claims? Otherwise it's just a load of bull ;)
myshpa 3y ago
Not really interested in arguing with you (you seem to be very set in your ways), so just some link spam for you ;) > 'single biggest way' to become unhealthy, weak, and scrawny https://old.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://old.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. - American Dietetic Association A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age. - NHS UK A plant-based diet is based on foods derived from plants, […] with few or no animal products. […] Well-planned plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life-stage. - British Dietetic Association > they are methodologically very dishonest (tricks like falsely equating protein quality) For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate. - WHO > anti-meat activism tends to be either quasi- or literally religious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q - Melanie Joy, The psychology of eating meat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw - James Wildman, Think > every problem is actually caused by that thing I don't like Plethora of studies has confirmed that (animal) agriculture is one of the biggest destroyers of our environment. It's mostly animal products consumers who reject latest science and choose to be ignorant of those problems.
- wyager 3y ago
  > Not really interested in arguing with you (you seem to be very set in your ways) I've had my mind changed (sometimes in significant ways) many times on HN. I would love it if vegans were correct on this topic, but unfortunately their epistemic rigor tends to be extremely bad and as far as I can tell they are pretty uniformly incorrect when they make claims like this. I think if you understood my objection, you wouldn't have bothered trying to convince me with links from organizations that exist solely to transmit low-quality information to midwits, like the WHO or random advocacy/lobbying group websites. The types of information that would convince me are e.g. epistemically sound research papers, and I can almost guarantee that I've read more of those than you have if you think random quote clippings from the WHO should have any impact whatsoever on anyone's priors. Sadly, your response is unfortunately quite typical of veganism enthusiasts on this website. Very condescending, but completely devoid of any kind of useful information.

by wyager 3y ago

cloverich 3y ago

One of my favorite NFL players was Vegan. He would uhh... run people over and generally out class people constantly. A quick google search of "NFL players who are vegan" reveals several well known players. These are among the strongest, most athletic people to have ever existed. So whatever the challenges of being vegan, I suspect "being weak" is certainly not one of them.

mr_mitm 3y ago
Have they always been vegan though? A glance at [0] shows they all decided to go vegan at some point in their adult life. Growing big and strong on a regular diet and then turning vegan does not exactly support the vegan lifestyle. Even this vegan powerlifter [1] turned vegan only at 32 (vegetarian at 26). [0] https://www.livekindly.com/vegan-nfl-players/ https://www.livekindly.com/vegan-nfl-players/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian
- cloverich 3y ago
  > Have they always been vegan though? That's a fair point. Another athlete I do follow who is ripped[1], has been reportedly Vegan since he was 2. Generally speaking when I think of building muscle in the gym, I think of protein powder and supplements as opposed to eating ever larger quantities of meat; I don't think that's controversial? AFAIK the only thing you need if you are vegan is a Vitamin supplement. I'm not a Vegan promoter or anything -- I'm not even sure what a Vegan eats for most of their meals (but would love to learn). But having some background in nutrition I'm skeptical there's any shortcoming to being Vegetarian, Vegan, etc, that a very simple supplement (i.e. like one regular vitamin) wouldn't overcome. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLfGBK67xY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLfGBK67xY
  - wyager 3y ago
    > I think of protein powder and supplements Most protein powder is whey-based (not vegan). Whey protein is generally inferior to muscle, connective tissue, etc. but it's typically a lot cheaper. It's better than plant-based alternatives though. Plant protein efficiency is terrible compared to animal protein efficiency, so any moderately muscular vegan is likely eating prodigious quantities of mediocre protein sources like peanut butter. > AFAIK the only thing you need if you are vegan is a Vitamin supplement. This is what some vegans will tell you, but you only need to look at the ones saying this to know it's not true. I know some vegans who could be mistaken for non-vegans from a fitness standpoint, and they put quite a lot of work into maintaining their diet. More than just taking a few vitamin pills. OTOH, you can achieve better results by just eating a lot of steak...
wyager 3y ago
Yes, the top 0.001% of genetic freak athletes with the world's best nutritionists and fitness consultants can get away with a highly constrained diet (for a while, at least). BTW, famous vegan athletes almost never start vegan, and tend to quickly retire due to increased injury rates and slowed recovery.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Some epistemically sound research to back up your claims? Otherwise it's just a load of bull ;)

myshpa 3y ago

Not really interested in arguing with you (you seem to be very set in your ways), so just some link spam for you ;) > 'single biggest way' to become unhealthy, weak, and scrawny https://old.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://old.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. - American Dietetic Association A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age. - NHS UK A plant-based diet is based on foods derived from plants, […] with few or no animal products. […] Well-planned plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life-stage. - British Dietetic Association > they are methodologically very dishonest (tricks like falsely equating protein quality) For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate. - WHO > anti-meat activism tends to be either quasi- or literally religious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q - Melanie Joy, The psychology of eating meat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw - James Wildman, Think > every problem is actually caused by that thing I don't like Plethora of studies has confirmed that (animal) agriculture is one of the biggest destroyers of our environment. It's mostly animal products consumers who reject latest science and choose to be ignorant of those problems.

wyager 3y ago
> Not really interested in arguing with you (you seem to be very set in your ways) I've had my mind changed (sometimes in significant ways) many times on HN. I would love it if vegans were correct on this topic, but unfortunately their epistemic rigor tends to be extremely bad and as far as I can tell they are pretty uniformly incorrect when they make claims like this. I think if you understood my objection, you wouldn't have bothered trying to convince me with links from organizations that exist solely to transmit low-quality information to midwits, like the WHO or random advocacy/lobbying group websites. The types of information that would convince me are e.g. epistemically sound research papers, and I can almost guarantee that I've read more of those than you have if you think random quote clippings from the WHO should have any impact whatsoever on anyone's priors. Sadly, your response is unfortunately quite typical of veganism enthusiasts on this website. Very condescending, but completely devoid of any kind of useful information.